========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 23:46:32 -0230 Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: Adam Vardy Subject: JiffyDOS in 1581 In-Reply-To: Doesn't anyone have a 1581? Anyone who uses a C128 have a 1581 and JiffyDOS? As I asked about last week, I am wondering if someone could tell me how long it takes to load a program from your 1581. Any program. As I said before, I am finding no improvement loading files in 128 mode. It is strange, and I am hoping someone can just send me an example of exactly how long it takes to load some program from your 1581. Load some 128 program and time how long it takes to load. If you have Dialogue 128, that would be one example. Any examples you can give me will do. - Adam Vardy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 22:44:24 -0500 Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: accolon@PLAYPEN.COM Subject: WANTED: Commodore Equipment Attention Commodore Users and Owners, I am seeking to purchase ANY Commodore 8-bit related hardware. I will pay as follows: Commodore Vic-20/+4/C16 $10.00 working condition Commodore 64 $20.00 working condition Commodore 128 $45.00 working condition Commodore 1540/1541/1571 $15.00 working condition Commodore 1581 $25.00 working condition Commodore 17xx REU $20.00 working condition Commodore SD drives $25.00 working condition CMD RAMLink $60.00 + $30.00 per megabyte + $10.00 RTC + $10.00 Battery BackUp CMD Hardrive $40.00 + $ .80 per megabyte (twice current price per megabyte) + $10.00 RL to HD Cable CMD FD-2000 $100.00 + $ 10.00 RTC CMD FD-4000 $150.00 + $ 10.00 RTC CMD SwiftLink $15.00 + $ 5.00 per cable/null modem Lt Kernal Hard Drive $20.00 + $ .60 per megabyte Cartridges (fast load type) $15.00 each Cartridges (games/other) $ 5.00 each Looking for all kinds of Commodore 8-bit equipment. If you are interested in selling anything, please respond via e-mail to; Accolon@playpen.com I have cash in hand and interested in buying :) Sent Via The Playpen BBS...Washington DC's Premier Online Service ..TELNET: PLAYPEN.COM...MODEM: (703)591-4567 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 11:18:51 -0700 Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: Larry Hollis Subject: Re: Using the C128 Z80? In-Reply-To: On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, STEVE MELLO wrote: > Hello, > > Can anyone tell me how the C128 uses its disk drive, video, and > printer while in the Z80 or CP/M mode? A. While running the CP/M OS you use the built in commands of CP/M to control the computer. As CP/M was developed before MS-DOS many of its commands look like MS-DOS commands. To see the directory of a disk in drive 'A' type DIR at the A> prompt. To load a file type the file's name at the A> prompt. To delete a file type ERA {filename} at the A> prompt. > Does the Z80 execute the CP/M and then the 8502 take care of the rest? A. The two processors work together, while in the native Commodore modes (i.e. C=64 & C=128) the 8502 is the main processor, while running the CP/M mode the Z80 takes charge. > How do you pass control between the two processors with software? A. Not sure why you would want to. CP/M is a world unto itself. As CP/M is a stand alone operating system just as the Commodore Kernel is. The two do not work together, hence the need for two different mpu chips. > I am also wondering if it is possible to trap the Z80 I/O > port events on the C128? It is the only why I can see to successfully > emulate another Z80 machine on the C128 (with my current limited > knowledge on the operation of the Z80 in the 128 :)? A. What do you mean by "emulate another Z80 machine"? CP/M was a universal OS in that is was not machine dependent. It all works the same whether you are sitting in front of a Kaypro, TRS-80, Osbourne OM-1, a C=128 in CP/M mode or what ever, they all work the same. MS-DOS is another universal OS in that it doesn't matter who make the box, as long as it has an i80xxx mpu in it it will run MS-DOS. To answer all (most) Z80 and CP/M questions for the C=128 you should get a hold of a copy of Digital Research's "CP/M Plus (CP/M Version 3) Operating System User's Guide, Programmer's Guide, and System Guide" 1983 reprineted by Commodore Business Machines Inc. It is a very thick book, about an inch and 3/4s. When you are running the CP/M OS you are running under CP/M. In this mode of the C=128 you can run any software that is written for a 8080 8085 or Z80 microprocessor. Unlike the Commodore OS which is stored in ROM, CP/M must be loaded (booted) from a "systems disk" before you can use it. This is because CP/M is a collection of programs called "transient commands" (the CP/M 3 OS has 20 transient commands; COPYSYS, DATE, DEVICE, DUMP, ED, GET, HELP, HEXCOM, INITDIR, LINK, MAC, PIP, PUT, RMAC, SET, SETDEF, SHOW, SID, SUBMIT, and XREF and six built-in commands; DIR, DIRSYS, ERSE, RENAME, TYPE, and USER. By way of comparrision MS-DOS v6.0 has over 100 commands) To get the most out of CP/M you must have two disk drives. Device 8 & 9 in Commodore terms, A & B in CP/M terms. (In fact it is easer to add more drives (i.e. floppy, hard, & RAM) in CP/M than in the native Commodore). You leave the "systems disk" in the A drive and put your "applications disk" in the B drive. This second disk has the programs and data files you want to use. If you add a CMD hard dirve, this becomes drive C and a RAM drive can be called drive M. On the screen you will see the "system prompt," a letter followed by the "greater-than" sign and in A>. This tells you that the A drive is active and the system is waiting for you to type a command. To copy the transient command ED (used to create and alter ASCII files) from the system disk to a RAM-Drive you use the transient command PIP in the following format. A> PIP M: = A:ED.COM {RETURN} What happens: The transient command PIP.COM is loaded in from the systems disk and run, it then looks for the file ED.COM on drive A, and then places a copy of the file on dirve M, PIP.COM then exits returning you back to the system monitor by displaying A>. To see if the file was copied at the A> prompt type M: {RETURN}. This will make dirve M active, with the prompt now showing M>. At this point type DIR {RETURN} which is a built-in command and a listing of all files on drive M will be displayed and the ED.COM file should be listed. Check your local library for books on how to use CP/M. Don't worry about what platform the books cover, CP/M is CP/M. The only caveat is disk formats. Commodore made a CP/M v2.2 cartridge for the Commodore 64 and the 1541 disk drive. As such, if this is the type of system you have you can only use disks that are formatted for the 1541. If you have a C=128, and a 1571 it will read several non-native Commodore CP/M disk formats. These non-native Commodore disk formats are called "MFM" formats. The 1571 will read/write to the following: Epson QX-10 IBM-8 SS (CP/M 86) IBM-8 DS (CP/M 86) KayPro II KayPro IV Osborne DD Thus any CP/M file on one of the above disk formats can be read/written to by the C=128 running CP/M+ v3.0. This opens up a very large collection of software that one can use with the Commodore 128 above and beyond the Commodore specific titles. There are a great many CP/M User Groups around. One of the oldest is FOG (First Osborne Group), I don,t have an address for them at my finger tips, but check the Net. I know this is a bit long, but it is an involved subject. You are working in a completely different operating system than the normal CBM Kernal. CP/M was the defacto standard OS in the early years of micro computers and both MS-DOS and UNIX owe much to it. There is a special version called MP/M that was a network version of CP/M. Last note, I think that you can still get a copy of the "CP/M Kit" from Innovative Computer Accessories at 1249 Dowining Street, P.O. Box 789, Imperial Beach, CA 92032-0837. I have not used CP/M in a number of years, but feel free to e-mail me any questions you have, and I will try and give you a good answer. r8-{)}}} ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:18:44 -0600 Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: "Tom A. Gislason" Organization: Calgary Free-Net Subject: Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment In-Reply-To: On Sat, 15 Jun 1996 accolon@PLAYPEN.COM wrote: > Attention Commodore Users and Owners, > > I am seeking to purchase ANY Commodore 8-bit related hardware. I will > pay as follows: > > > Commodore Vic-20/+4/C16 $10.00 working condition > Commodore 64 $20.00 working condition > Commodore 128 $45.00 working condition > Commodore 1540/1541/1571 $15.00 working condition > Commodore 1581 $25.00 working condition > Commodore 17xx REU $20.00 working condition > Commodore SD drives $25.00 working condition > > CMD RAMLink $60.00 + > $30.00 per megabyte > + $10.00 RTC > + $10.00 Battery BackUp > > CMD Hardrive $40.00 + > $ .80 per megabyte (twice current > price per megabyte) > + $10.00 RL to HD Cable > > CMD FD-2000 $100.00 > + $ 10.00 RTC > > CMD FD-4000 $150.00 > + $ 10.00 RTC > > CMD SwiftLink $15.00 > + $ 5.00 per cable/null modem > > > Lt Kernal Hard Drive $20.00 + > $ .60 per megabyte > > Cartridges (fast load type) $15.00 each > Cartridges (games/other) $ 5.00 each > > Looking for all kinds of Commodore 8-bit equipment. If you are > interested in selling anything, please respond via e-mail to; > > Accolon@playpen.com > > I have cash in hand and interested in buying :) > Sent Via The Playpen BBS...Washington DC's Premier Online Service > ..TELNET: PLAYPEN.COM...MODEM: (703)591-4567 > Friend, I don't know where you get your prices from, but they are just a little low.............like by a LOT !!!!!!! Let's see..........I have the following for sale: C=64--------------------$45.00 C=128-------------------$60.00 C=1541 drive------------$45.00 C=64 c/w JD-------------$60.00 C=1541 drive c/w JD-----$60.00 C=1520 plotter----------$45.00 Lt. Kernel 20 meg HD---$200.00 SFD1001 1 meg drive-----$75.00 8250 dual drive---------$75.00 Prices DO NOT include shipping. All units in good working order. These prices are MORE in line. Tom Gislason - Sysop - Emergency Call BBS (403)734-2382 (403)934-4756 Pearako Network Node #10 - CommNet Node #92 Internet address: gislason@freenet.calgary.ab.ca FidoNet address: Tom Gislason @ 1:134/281.0 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 06:53:45 -0400 Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: Tony Perotti Subject: Re: JiffyDOS in 1581 X-cc: aperotti@us.net I usually load most everything from my CMD HD. I'll try and remember to do some sort of load experiment with my 1581 this week. Do you want #'s with JD on and then JD off? ____ ,^o |perotti_anthony@hq.navsea.navy.mil / _ ._ | C=128D,JD,Swiftlink,CMD HD40, /_(_)_| )_\/ | Boccamodem 14.4,1581,fun,fun,fun. Perotti / | -=8 bits should be enough for anyone=- ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: JiffyDOS in 1581 Author: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION at Internet Date: 6/14/96 11:46 PM Doesn't anyone have a 1581? Anyone who uses a C128 have a 1581 and JiffyDOS? As I asked about last week, I am wondering if someone could tell me how long it takes to load a program from your 1581. Any program. As I said before, I am finding no improvement loading files in 128 mode. It is strange, and I am hoping someone can just send me an example of exactly how long it takes to load some program from your 1581. Load some 128 program and time how long it takes to load. If you have Dialogue 128, that would be one example. Any examples you can give me will do. - Adam Vardy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:12:30 +0200 Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: Jesus Garcia Otero Subject: Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment In-Reply-To: On Sat, 15 Jun 1996 accolon@PLAYPEN.COM wrote: > Attention Commodore Users and Owners, > > I am seeking to purchase ANY Commodore 8-bit related hardware. I will > pay as follows: > > > Commodore Vic-20/+4/C16 $10.00 working condition > Commodore 64 $20.00 working condition > Commodore 128 $45.00 working condition > Commodore 1540/1541/1571 $15.00 working condition > Commodore 1581 $25.00 working condition > Commodore 17xx REU $20.00 working condition > Commodore SD drives $25.00 working condition > > CMD RAMLink $60.00 + > $30.00 per megabyte > + $10.00 RTC > + $10.00 Battery BackUp > > CMD Hardrive $40.00 + > $ .80 per megabyte (twice current > price per megabyte) > + $10.00 RL to HD Cable > > CMD FD-2000 $100.00 > + $ 10.00 RTC > > CMD FD-4000 $150.00 > + $ 10.00 RTC > > CMD SwiftLink $15.00 > + $ 5.00 per cable/null modem > > > Lt Kernal Hard Drive $20.00 + > $ .60 per megabyte > > Cartridges (fast load type) $15.00 each > Cartridges (games/other) $ 5.00 each > Very splendid. Better pay nothing !!! Of course, if anyone is interested in selling for this prices first talk to me. Jesus Garcia Dpto. de Fisica Aplicada Universidad de Santiago de Compostela SPAIN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:35:18 EDT Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: Denny Springle Subject: Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment First of all, *MY* prices are not up for discussion, I will pay as I stated to pay. Commodore hardware exhibits little or no potential resale value whatsoever in the real world, the prices I have indicated are actually HIGHER than national Commodore resellers would pay for your equipment. In fact, for the price you quoted me for the C64 ($45), I could purchase a serviced model that includes JiffyDOS from a reseller in Texas. I apolgize if these prices seem low to anyone else, but I am being more than fair in light of other Commodore resellers and the current going price for comparable hardware by todays standards. If you do not want to sell your equipment for the prices I've indicated, or a price we can discuss in E-mail for any package deals, then don't sell them to me. Simple. Accolon@playpen.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 22:40:39 -0600 Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: "Tom A. Gislason" Organization: Calgary Free-Net Subject: Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment In-Reply-To: <199606171730.NAA11189@portal.dx.net> On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Denny Springle wrote: > First of all, *MY* prices are not up for discussion, I will pay as I > stated to pay. Commodore hardware exhibits little or no potential resale > value whatsoever in the real world, Well, my friend, I am not sure what world you are on, but there is a VERY large Commodore community......we even have our own poor man's internet...........otherwise known as CommNet.......it is a network of different Commodore 64/128 BBS software all networking together. Soon, we hope to have a way to have the network become really international (other than just Canada and the U.S.)....this BTW, is just a short distance away. > the prices I have indicated are > actually HIGHER than national Commodore resellers would pay for your > equipment. In fact, for the price you quoted me for the C64 ($45), I > could purchase a serviced model that includes JiffyDOS from a reseller > in Texas. I apolgize if these prices seem low to anyone else, but I am > being more than fair in light of other Commodore resellers and the > current going price for comparable hardware by todays standards. I am still interested just where you seem to get your numbers. I see lots of Commodore equipment for sale, and it sure as heck is no where the price you are willing to pay. > If you > do not want to sell your equipment for the prices I've indicated, or a > price we can discuss in E-mail for any package deals, then don't sell > them to me. ^^^^ You can BET on that. Tom Gislason - Sysop - Emergency Call BBS (403)734-2382 (403)934-4756 Pearako Network Node #10 - CommNet Node #92 Internet address: gislason@freenet.calgary.ab.ca FidoNet address: Tom Gislason @ 1:134/281.0 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:42:42 -0400 Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: STEVE MELLO Subject: Re: Using the C128 Z80? -Reply Thanks Larry, I did the manual last weekend you are referring to..It's very thick and has programming info also. The reason for the question about the Z80 is that I was thinking of working on a program to emulate a TRS-80. As you know it also ran on the Z80A (M4). In order to be able to emulate the machine I have to do certain things such as trap the I/O events from the CPU. I have since found out that it is not possible on the Z80 as it is set up on the C128. I am still not taking no for an answer though. I will look at other ways to do it. It's for any particular reason, just that I am fond of the TRS-80 also, and that as a computer science major, I like to tinker with things. Thanks for the info. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:17:28 -0400 Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: Michael Bendure Subject: Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment > First of all, *MY* prices are not up for discussion, I will pay as I > stated to pay. Commodore hardware exhibits little or no potential resale > value whatsoever in the real world, the prices I have indicated are > actually HIGHER than national Commodore resellers would pay for your > equipment. This may be so, but who in their right mind would sell their stuff to you for what resellers would pay? Especially on a Commodore Discussion group where the value of these machines is quite a bit higher. No one is going to buy a $150 RAMLink and turn around and sell it for $60.00. Especially when we could sell them all day long for $100.00 used. > In fact, for the price you quoted me for the C64 ($45), I > could purchase a serviced model that includes JiffyDOS from a reseller > in Texas. I sell 64's for $35.00 without JiffyDOS. JiffyDOS runs $25.00 - $30.00 brand new which would increase that price to at least $60. CMD sells the 64 with JiffyDOS for $75.00. Again, if you can get the products you want for the prices your asking, then why are you bothering the Commodore Discussion group? These folks rarely sell their equipment and when they do, they sell to other Commodore users who value the price of their machines. Your best bet would be to checkout the garage sales and thrift shops to find stuff at the prices you quoted. > I apolgize if these prices seem low to anyone else, but I am > being more than fair in light of other Commodore resellers and the > current going price for comparable hardware by todays standards. Todays standards have nothing to do with the value of these machines. If you want to go chip level, it would cost you way more to build a 64 that what your asking. The power supply and cabling alone would cost more than your willing to pay for a complete unit and some of the chips to fix the machines, if available at all are holding their price and hasn't dropped that much in the last 7 or 8 years. I'm not sure what other Commodore resellers your refering to, but no one on this group would sell to a reseller when they can sell to a Commodore user and get twice what a reseller would offer. The only people who sell to these folks are school systems upgrading to PC, or other companies getting rid of old stock. > If you do not want to sell your equipment for the prices I've indicated, or a > price we can discuss in E-mail for any package deals, then don't sell > them to me. Simple. You can bet that your original message will pull alot of replies, but most will be of this nature. You may do better in comp.sys.cbm, but again you'll be lucky to find what you want at those prices. Good Luck to you and I hope you do find them. I wouldn't mind picking them up myself at those prices, I need to restock a few items.. :) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:07:39 EDT Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: AZSX Subject: Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:12:30 +0200 from Bueno, esos precios estan dificiles.!.!..... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:06:00 EST Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: Christopher McLeod Subject: Here's some food for thought: X-To: ATKINSONM , BARNARDA , BURNETTC , CARTERC , DOWC , HOLDENC , JSigdor , KENDALLS , MADRIGALG , MARCOA , MORANEC , MORRISA , o'brienp , RHODEJM , SANFORDK , STEWART , TAYLORA , VININGC , VININGE , VININGK , weirsmab <102731.1173@compuserve.com> Here's some food for thought: You may not know about the Darwin Awards - It's an annual honor given to the person who did the gene pool the biggest service by killing themselves in the most extraordinarily stupid way. This year's nominee is: The Arizona Highway Patrol came upon a pile of smoldering metal embedded into the side of a cliff rising above the road at the apex of a curve. The wreckage resembled the site of an airplane crash, but it was a car. The type of car was unidentifiable at the scene. The lab finally figured out what had happened. It seems that a guy had somehow gotten hold of a JATO unit (Jet Assisted Take Off - actually a solid fuel rocket) that is used to give heavy military transport planes an extra "push" for taking off from short airfields. He had driven his Chevy Impala out into the desert and found a long, straight stretch of road. Then he attached the JATO unit to his car, jumped in, got up some speed and fired off the JATO! The facts as best as could be determined are that the operator of the 1967 Impala hit JATO ignition at a distance of approximately 3.0 miles from the crash site. This was established by the prominent scorched and melted asphalt at that location. The JATO, if operating properly, would have reached maximum thrust within 5 seconds, causing the Chevy to reach speeds well in excess of 350 mph and continuing at full power for an additional 20-30 seconds. The driver, soon to be pilot, most likely would have experienced G-forces usually reserved for dog-fighting F-14 jocks under full afterburners, basically causing him to become insignificant for the the remainder of the event. However, the automobile remained on the straight highway for about 2.5 miles (15-20) seconds before the driver applied and completely melted the brakes, blowing the tires and leaving thick rubber marks on the road surface, then becoming airborne for an additional 1.4 miles and impacting the cliff face at a height of 125 feet leaving a blackened crater 3 feet deep in the rock. Most of the driver's remains were not recoverable; however, small fragments of bone, teeth and hair were extracted from the crater and fingernail and bone shards were removed from a piece of debris believed to be a portion of the steering wheel. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:03:24 EDT Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: Denny Springle Subject: Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment First of all, I normally purchase equipment through want ads, flea markets, and the like. I am used to purchasing C64's for as little as $10 and 1541/1571/1581 drives as little as $10 but no more than $30 (1581). I buy systems locally for around $100-150 on the norm. I've purchased CMD drives (80mb) as low as $120 before. Where I get my pricing from, besides from discussions with the owner of the afore mentioned reseller in Texas who would pay LESS than I would and has no problem purchasing equipment at HIS prices. I thought I was being nice by offering prices at better than 150% of what I normally pay. Keep in mind also, that I buy AND sell Commodore equipment at wholesale prices, we are not talking about retail prices advertised in magazines from those who likely pay even less than me to buy the equipment to begin with. Again, I am sorry if you lack the understanding to see what I mean. I am not in the mainstream of Commodore that you are... I've never been in the mainstream... but you can believe that I will make my presence known in the mainstream you know by the end of the year with a product that will make your CommNet better or obsolete (depends on the users I guess). It's time Commodore stepped into the real mainstream of technology... this means greater global support for Commodore users, cheaper technology (you know, like why is it that you can buy a 1 gig SCSI-2 hard drive for $200 in your local computer store, but CMD still charges $400 for a 1/2 gig drive (which costs them about $90)... c'mon!), and room for the next generation of Commodore users. You may not agree with my prices, and from I see and understand your point of view, you feel your equipment is more valuable than it actually is. Tell me, if you bought one of CMD's $400 500mb drives, how much do you think you could get for it if you tried to sell it the next day in the Commodore mainstream? 3/4 if you're lucky... more likely half. Lets look at it another way... if Commodore prices don't go down then CMD will go out of business (at least in the US) eventually, the current Commodore users will weigh the cost of having a Commodore system with 1/2 gig HD, 4mb RL, SwiftLink & 28.8 modem, and an FD-2000 floppy (cost currently about $1000) against a PC system (486dx4 100mhz for example) with 1 gig HD, 8mb RAM, Multimedia CD-ROM, 16(32) bit stereo sound, etc. BRAND NEW for less than that (I've seen systems such as this as low as $799 in Computer Shopper) and will port over to those systems and stick the Commodore in the closet or in the trash, or if they are a hard-core like me (and you!), they might keep it around to play with, but will soon get bored with the basic c64/128, 1541/1571/1581 setup and lose interest (I've been there). You have a local flea market near you? Check it out and if you find Commodore hardware, offer them $10 for each piece and see how much hardware you collect! Anyway, I am not trying to start an arguement here, apparently there are those of you who are... save it... I don't want to hear it ok... Those are my prices... take them or leave them... you've made it clear that *you* won't take so little for your hardware, and that is valiant, but many other will, so to those that disagree with me, there are three times as many as you who don't... I should have known not to come to a Commodore list with this at all, I expected this kind of reaction, and it both pleases me to see Commodore users defend thier systems and upsets me that you feel the need to argue with me. This thread ends here ok... your opinion is valuable and noted, so drop it. On the lighter side, what do you think an Internet ready Commodore 64 and 128 version BBS system would do to the Commodore community? I'm talking TCP/IP support for 28.8 SLIP access with FTP, telnet, and e-mail support. Imagine the simplicity of inter-networking Commodore based BBS's via the internet as opposed to LD? Imagine the excitement of having Commodore c/g BBS's on the Net? This, my friends, is where our concentration should be directed... it is where mine has been directed for quite some time now. The future of all computer related technology will be network based, and the Commodore curse is still around... we're still behind the times, even though we know our systems can do (almost) anything thiers can! Commodore died out of stupidity, and what remains now of a once proud group of computer users is a rag-tag fleet of BBS systems internetworking to form the CommNet, a few FTP sites, even fewer lists... The CommNet, though to be honest I never knew someone actually designed the software required to internetwork among different systems (something I think I talked about back in 1989 when C*Base v3.x and DMBBS and Colors 64/128 were in tight competition all with thier own code and design of networking when I told folks (like Fred and Gunther that a universal networking protocol would go a long way to saving the Commodore community). But then, I've watched the Commodore community decline more and more every year since the early 80's and I'm still defending it as a versatile, user friendly, wonderful little machine. Anyway, if this sparks your interest, let me know and I'll give you the juicy details, or if you care to discuss anything OTHER than my prices, then e-mail me. Sincerely, Denny Springle accolon@playpen.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:08:20 EDT Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: Denny Springle Subject: Here's some food for thought: Ouch! But what a way to go eh? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:00:26 -0500 Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: " " Subject: Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment Can we get this guy outta here? What the hell is he smoking? What's next, pipeline access to the internet? No way, I've already played with internet for the commodore 64&128 you're not going to achieve 28.8. We can use the internet however via LYNX web-browsing. Your commodore will have to be in 80 column ANSI terminal to use it. This can be done with a program called NOVATERM 9.3 or 9.5. and your prices are way too low! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:18:36 -0400 Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: Michael Bendure Subject: Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment > First of all, I normally purchase equipment through want ads, flea > markets, and the like. I am used to purchasing C64's for as little as > $10 and 1541/1571/1581 drives as little as $10 but no more than $30 > (1581). Then again, I still don't understand why you even brought the subject up? We all know we can get 64's almost for free at garage sells, thrift stores and flea markets. Even I get the occassional free 64 from someone who simply does use theirs anymore. I won't even discuss the price I paid for the last 40 systems we purchased. > I buy systems locally for around $100-150 on the norm. That's closer to the right range. I sell the 64 and 1541 combo for $75.00. > I've purchased CMD drives (80mb) as low as $120 before. That's less than half the purchase price of simply the controller. So how many of these have you bought at these prices, just the one? > Where I get my pricing from, besides from discussions with the owner of the afore > mentioned reseller in Texas who would pay LESS than I would and has no > problem purchasing equipment at HIS prices. I thought I was being nice > by offering prices at better than 150% of what I normally pay. Well again, your best bet is to continue the flea market search. :) > Keep in mind also, that I buy AND sell Commodore equipment at wholesale prices, > we are not talking about retail prices advertised in magazines from those who likely > pay even less than me to buy the equipment to begin with. Then what can I buy a 64 from you for? If your selling at wholesale prices, then I should be able to buy from you and still make a profit. Let me know, you may have a customer. :) > Again, I am sorry if you lack the understanding to see what I mean. But I do see what you mean. I too buy this stuff from school systems, flea markets and people who simply give them away. This doesn't make their value to the people who want and use these computers any less. To the people giving them away, they are worthless. But to a Commodore user, whose computer just bit the dust, these things do have value. Especially when the chip he needs to fix it, runs around $7.00, or the good power supplies are $30.00 to $40.00. > I am not in the mainstream of Commodore that you are... This is evident. > I've never been in the mainstream... but you can believe that I will make my > presence known in the mainstream you know by the end of the year with a > product that will make your CommNet better or obsolete (depends on the > users I guess). According to your standards, it already is. But to the 60+ Commodore BBS's in CommNet, it gets better all the time. But of course, since your not in the mainstream, you wouldn't know that would you? > It's time Commodore stepped into the real mainstream of technology... this > means greater global support for Commodore users, Hmm, I thought CommNet, Fido Net's CBM, CBM_128 and CBM_GEOS, the Internet's comp.sys.cbm and the 2200 + Web sites that have something to do with Commodore, already was better Global Support. Give me a break, how do you get more global than the Internet.. > cheaper technology (you know, like why is it that you can buy a 1 gig SCSI-2 > hard drive for $200 in your local computer store, but CMD still charges $400 > for a 1/2 gig drive (which costs them about $90)... c'mon!), and room for the > next generation of Commodore users. You, like the countless other retailers have no concept of what the CMD HD really means, or consists of. A 540 Meg SCSI HD, if you can find them new, are still holding their price at around $180.00. How much do you pay for a standard SCSI controller for your PC. Not a garbage one, but a good SCSI controller. How much do you pay for a case and a power supply? How about special ports, DOS and other features you have with the CMD. You can expect a standard CMD controller to cost around $250.00. Considering what you can pay for SCSI controllers for the PC, not to mention the case, power supply and other features. This is a reasonable price. So add whatever price a standard SCSI hard drive to the initial $250.00 and you'll see why the CMD cost the price it does. This isn't even considering the difference in cost to manufacture the few number of boards they order, compared to the number of boards ordered by companies who sell standard PC SCSI controllers. > You may not agree with my prices, and from I see and understand your > point of view, you feel your equipment is more valuable than it actually > is. Again, that depends on your point of view. > Tell me, if you bought one of CMD's $400 500mb drives, how much do > you think you could get for it if you tried to sell it the next day in > the Commodore mainstream? Well first of all, I was lucky enough not to have to buy the whole unit. The price I paid for the controller, case and power supply was well worth the 5 years of use I got out of it considering the price I paid for one 1541-II when they were new. Second of all, I wouldn't buy a CMD HD and consider selling it at all, even if I had to. Its not an investment that we even consider making our money back on. If I actually had to sell my CMD HD, I would ask any less than $200.00 for just the controller. Funny thing is, I could get that today.. > 3/4 if you're lucky... more likely half. This is where your wrong. I can sell my controller right now for $30.00 less than I paid for it. > Lets look at it another way... if Commodore prices don't go down then CMD > will go out of business (at least in the US) eventually, Yeah, we've heard that line for the last several years.. heheh > the current Commodore users will weigh the cost of having a Commodore > system with 1/2 gig HD, 4mb RL, SwiftLink & 28.8 modem, and an FD-2000 > floppy (cost currently about $1000) against a PC system (486dx4 100mhz > for example) with 1 gig HD, 8mb RAM, Multimedia CD-ROM, 16(32) bit > stereo sound, etc. This is where your wrong. Many Commodore users already have the Multi-Media Monsters. The cost of the CMD stuff is justified because there are no other HD's available with the support and compatibility of the CMD. The users buy them for the same reason PC users buy a Matrox Millenium Video Card instead of the $50.00 VGA Card. > BRAND NEW for less than that (I've seen systems such as this as low as > $799 in Computer Shopper) and will port over to those systems and stick > the Commodore in the closet or in the trash, or if they are a hard-core > like me (and you!), they might keep it around to play with, but will > soon get bored with the basic c64/128, 1541/1571/1581 setup and lose > interest (I've been there). Considering these are 13 year old machines and the PC has been in the mainstream for many years now and still hasn't gotten it right, I don't see much of a scare yet. > You have a local flea market near you? Check it out and if you find Commodore hardware, offer them $10 for each piece > and see how much hardware you collect! Duh.. Like don't you think we who sell this stuff does the same thing you do? > Anyway, I am not trying to start an arguement here, apparently there > are those of you who are... save it... I don't want to hear it ok... Well you opened yourself up for it. :) > Those are my prices... take them or leave them... you've made it clear > that *you* won't take so little for your hardware, and that is valiant, > but many other will, so to those that disagree with me, there are three > times as many as you who don't... I should have known not to come to a > Commodore list with this at all, I expected this kind of reaction, and > it both pleases me to see Commodore users defend thier systems and > upsets me that you feel the need to argue with me. > This thread ends here ok... your opinion is valuable and noted, so drop it. No problem with me. I really didn't want to get into this in the first palce, but I could help myself. Actually, if I didn't see someone else get brave I wouldn't have just let it go.. :) > On the lighter side, what do you think an Internet ready Commodore 64 > and 128 version BBS system would do to the Commodore community? I'm > talking TCP/IP support for 28.8 SLIP access with FTP, telnet, and e-mail > support. Imagine the simplicity of inter-networking Commodore based > BBS's via the internet as opposed to LD? Imagine the excitement of > having Commodore c/g BBS's on the Net? This, my friends, is where our > concentration should be directed... it is where mine has been directed > for quite some time now. This would indeed be interesting and there are already several folks in CBM land that has been concentrating on this as well. There is already a SLIP demo and I beleive a mini IRC client available for the 64. In order to do what you want, you would have to make your package available to all the existing BBS programs already in existance. Although an exclusive BBS that uses this process would be nice as well, I think you'll find that many BBS Sysops will continue to run whatever it is they are running now, despite the Internet ploy. Just so you know, CommNet is as we speak, connecting to the Fido Network and have access to most of the other IBM Networks through a Wildcat BBS connection we are making. We also plan on connecting to the Internet, but only for the CBM content, just like with Fido and the other IBM BBS Networks. CommNet allows the BBS sysop to continue running their existing system, regardless of the BBS program, as well as being connected to any other Commodore BBS. Once we make the Fido CBM areas available, all that is left is the Internet connection. > The future of all computer related technology will be network based, and > the Commodore curse is still around... we're still behind the times, even > though we know our systems can do (almost) anything thiers can! Sounds to me your already behind the times. We have been networked with C-Net 64 DS2 BBS since 1989, so has Image and a year or so later, C-Net 128. Color 64 and the others even had some form or another of Networking for quite some time. > Commodore died out of stupidity, and what remains > now of a once proud group of computer users is a rag-tag fleet of BBS > systems internetworking to form the CommNet, Well considering that C-Net 64, C-Net 128 and Image were the most popular, sold more copies and has the largest support groups of any other Commodore 64 or 128 BBS systems, I wouldn't call that rag-tag. Also considering that CommNet is more than just a bunch of hacked mods connecting a BBS systems. Its an actual reallife attempt to create a standard between different BBS platforms run on the Commodore 64 and 128 BBS's. We all use the same connection and packet structure based on the Hub/Node or Server/Client type setup. > a few FTP sites, even fewer lists... Have you tried a Yahoo or Lycos search yet? Last time I did, there were over 2200 entries.!! > The CommNet, though to be honest I never knew someone actually > designed the software required to internetwork among different systems This is because no one person did. CommNet is a result of about 5 different programmers from different BBS platforms. We all hacked a quick connection and laid down a standard format we could all use with our existing BBS/Networking programs. The connection and packet structure was agreed upon and we designed each of our systems to meet that standard. CommNet took me three years just to get people interested in the idea and another year or so to find the people who could or would do the programming. We are still searching for programmers from Color 64, V128, C*Base and Omni that want to join into CommNet. All they have to do is stick to the standard and they can connect and convert the packets into their structure. > (something I think I talked about back in 1989 when C*Base v3.x and > DMBBS and Colors 64/128 were in tight competition all with thier own > code and design of networking when I told folks (like Fred and Gunther > that a universal networking protocol would go a long way to saving the > Commodore community). I actually worked with Eric Hodges with DMBBS, but he dropped the whole network idea with them. I even got Fred Ogle to send me a copy of Color 64 to help convert their network over, but the disks he sent were blank and I never heard from him again. When I mentioned it to Gunther, he just laughed and said it would never work. Well, here we are two years later and five+ Networks strong and even starting Fido connections. Nah, it'll never work.. hehe > But then, I've watched the Commodore community decline more and more > every year since the early 80's and I'm still defending it as a > versatile, user friendly, wonderful little machine. Anyway, if this > sparks your interest, let me know and I'll give you the juicy details, > or if you care to discuss anything OTHER than my prices, then e-mail me. More than glad to discuss anything other than prices. BTW, if your interested in connecting to CommNet, you know where to reach me.. hehe.. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:23:15 -0400 Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: Michael Bendure Subject: Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment > Can we get this guy outta here? What the hell is he smoking? What's > next, pipeline access to the internet? No way, I've already played with > internet for the commodore 64&128 you're not going to achieve 28.8. Hmm, where do we get these people.. hehe Apparently, your not using the right hardware/software combination. Are you using ACEterm with an REU and a Swiftlink? I can achieve 28.8 quite nicely thank you. I beleive Craig Bruce is doing 115.2K baud with his combination. Given the right software/hardware combination 28.8 is a simple connection for the 64 or 128. > We can use the internet however via LYNX web-browsing. Your commodore > will have to be in 80 column ANSI terminal to use it. This can be done > with a program called NOVATERM 9.3 or 9.5. and your prices are way too > low! Try ACEterm, you'll be amazed. Almost forgot, you need a shell account. :) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:44:36 -0500 Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: " " Subject: Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment Where can i find aceterm? will it support graphics in any way(internet)? Or is it a text based browser. Someone please tell me more! I am willing to buy this program if at all possible! Geminus@anarchyx.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 04:19:08 -0500 Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: David Meads Subject: Here's some food for thought: The JATO apparatus is used by the Blue Angels (Navy aerobatic/demonstration flying team) in their C-130 Hercules transport aircraft...enabling the plane to ascend to about a thousand feet in seconds. This guy apparently never realized the awesome power of this rocket motor apparatus until it was too late. Should've done it on the dry lake bed at Edwards. :> ----- I I --------------- de Hat dehat@cupid.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 06:53:07 -0400 Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: Tony Perotti Subject: Re[2]: WANTED: Commodore Equipment ACETerm is part of a Unix-like operating system for the 64/128 done by Craig Bruce and it is freeware. From a recent post in comp.sys.cbm: "For those interested, I have finished editing the Programmer's Reference Guide for ACE Release #15. Some of the descriptions for the newest calls are lacking, but I'm tired. You can get the file from FTP host "ccnga.uwaterloo.ca" in directory "/pub/cbm/os/ace" in file "ace15-prg.doc". Or you can get it on the Web through URL: http://ccnga.uwaterloo.ca/~csbruce/mycommie.html Keep on Hackin'! -Craig Bruce csbruce@ccnga.uwaterloo.ca" ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment Author: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION at Internet Date: 6/19/96 9:44 PM Where can i find aceterm? will it support graphics in any way(internet)? Or is it a text based browser. Someone please tell me more! I am willing to buy this program if at all possible! Geminus@anarchyx.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 06:59:30 PDT Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: carrillo@CARRILLO.TINKER.AF.MIL Subject: CommNet Information X-cc: carrillo@ocdis01.tinker.af.mil > > More than glad to discuss anything other than prices. BTW, if your >interested in connecting to CommNet, you know where to reach me.. hehe.. > Hi. I couldn't put in all the text, but the last line, the one above, got my attention. I would like information on how to connect to CommNet. I can be reached here or at one of the addresses below. Thanx Vic Carrillo carrillo@ocdis01.tinker.af.mil ig154@cleveland.freenet.edu victorio@aztec.asu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:43:43 -0400 Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: Gaelyne Moranec Subject: Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment In-Reply-To: On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, wrote: > next, pipeline access to the internet? No way, I've already played with > internet for the commodore 64&128 you're not going to achieve 28.8. A distinction. I agree that high speed modems aren't needed for the Internet because the net itself isn't flying these days, but you CAN acheive 28.8k and higher *connections* to your service provider. It helps for downloading and time spent using utilities your ISP provides, but when it comes to Web browsing, currently my ISP is only acheiving speeds of around 300cps, so a 2400 baud modem would be sufficient. But as you know, there's more to the Internet than WWW. > We can use the internet however via LYNX web-browsing. Your commodore > will have to be in 80 column ANSI terminal to use it. This can be done > with a program called NOVATERM 9.3 or 9.5. and your prices are way too > low! You can also use Dialogue 128 or Desterm for 128 users. VT100 emulation is usually the better choice of emulation terminals, but that depends on the service you phone. As for prices, well... what bothers me most about posting prices such as this in a Commodore forum is that I worry it will devalue our equipment further and rather than it being a help, it hurts the base of users which already exists. My other concern is for the few users on the edge of deciding to pack it all in seeing an "easy way out" and abandoning their systems. On the flip side of this, it's no worse than most pawn shops - buying low and selling high. In this case, though it stands a better chance the equipment will be returned to Commodore users instead of sitting in a dusty pawn shop. My five cents. Change not required. Cheers, Gaelyne //\ /\\ Gaelyne R. Moranec (Gasson) Fidonet: || * \ . . / * || 90 Hilliers Rd 1:366/221.128 \\____\X/____// Reynella, S.A. 5161 3:800/809.128 / * /O\ * \ Australia \__/ " \__/ Gaelyne@cris.com / moranec@hal9000.net.au http://www.msen.com/~brain/guest/Gaelyne_Moranec QWKRR: http://www.msen.com/~brain/guest/Gaelyne_Moranec/qwkrr/qtoc.html Speaking only for myself and not for any employers or publications. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:03:59 -0400 Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: Michael Bendure Subject: Re: CommNet Information > > More than glad to discuss anything other than prices. BTW, if your > >interested in connecting to CommNet, you know where to reach me.. hehe.. > > > Hi. I couldn't put in all the text, but the last line, the one above, > got my attention. I would like information on how to connect > to CommNet. I can be reached here or at one of the addresses > below. Thanx Well, I'd need a little information. First off, do you run a BBS? If so, what program and version? If the BBS you run isn't already connected to CommNet, we would need someone who knows the BBS program and can write a few moduals or edit existing programs to make it work. I have a complete layout of our packet structure and connection procedure if your interested. Ed Wilson and myself can assist you on any programming you may need help with. Let me know, we would be glad to have you. :) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:19:00 EST Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: Christopher McLeod Subject: Shell accounts Can anyone out there recommend a good ISP? I have been using CServe for my internet searching (w ANSI color), but recently started trying out an ISP called Concentric Internet Service (or something like that). The problem is that accessing the WWW is MUCH faster through CServe than it is through this ISP. The ISP is nice because I can do bookmarks, download files, etc (using LYNX) but reaching the same site through CServe takes 1/3rd of the time that my ISP does. What gives? I am using NovaTerm 9.5 with a SwiftLink at 9600. What happens on the ISP (for those of you who are familiar with LYNX) is that the bottom of the screen will say "512 bytes of data received" and then I will wait for probably 1.5 to 3 minutes and it will not have changed. This doesn't happen EVERY time but frequently enough to make it irritating. Other times it "gets" the data successfully, but much slower than going throug CServe. Any hope? Chris McLeod ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:43:37 -0500 Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: Doug Cotton Subject: Re: Thought you should see this >On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Denny Springle wrote: > It's time Commodore stepped into the real mainstream of > technology... this means greater global support for Commodore users, > cheaper technology (you know, like why is it that you can buy a 1 gig > SCSI-2 hard drive for $200 in your local computer store, but CMD still > charges $400 for a 1/2 gig drive (which costs them about $90)... > c'mon!), and room for the next generation of Commodore users. I really take exception to this. Your assumption that we pay only $90 for a 500 MB drive mechanism is way off. If you know of a consistant source for new drives of that capacity at the indicated price, I'd sure like to know who it is. That aside, your entire comment with regard to the price comparison is misleading. Reading your comment, once would be led to believe that CMD charges customers $400 for something we paid $90 for. That's simply absurd. The mechanism is only part of what goes into a CMD HD. In fact, we put well over that $90 figure you spouted into parts for the case/controller/power supply before we ever purchase the drive mechanism that goes along with it. Try this comparison. Check the latest MacWorld. I found an external 500 MB SCSI drive listed there for $169. Now add a SCSI controller. Cheapest one I could find was an Adaptec for $299. Total cost: $468. Now consider that the average file on a Mac or Windows machine is probably ten times the size of a Commodore file, and maybe you'll begin to understand that even when you do direct comparisons of hardware, there's much more to be considered. All in all, you get a lot more power for your Commodore for an equivalent price in hardware. Your comments about cheaper technology do not take the actual Commodore market into consideration. While we at CMD adapt mainstream technology to the Commodore, there's a cost involved in doing that. Granted, that technology gets cheaper as time goes on, and ironically, so do the prices we charge for products we make that incorporate those components. But you always (even in the Windows market) pay a premium for products from a company that maintains ongoing R & D into incorporating new technology. Compare the price of a computer system from IBM with that of a similar system from Packard Bell. The IBM will generally cost more, and that is directly related to higher overhead costs. So if you want lower costs for CMD-like products, what you need is to get some Korean or Taiwanese companies involved in making CMD product clones, by-passing the high R & D costs of developing such things from scratch. Problem with that is our market doesn't offer enough sales volume to make this feasible for such companies. Of course, the biggest problem is that even if you threw out R & D costs and had the sales volume to dump a million hard drives a year into the Commodore market, you still could never produce the stand-alone drive necessary to work on a Commodore at price that could directly compete with the raw mechanisms employed in Windows machine. > You may not agree with my prices, and from I see and understand your > point of view, you feel your equipment is more valuable than it actually > is. Tell me, if you bought one of CMD's $400 500mb drives, how much do > you think you could get for it if you tried to sell it the next day in > the Commodore mainstream? 3/4 if you're lucky... more likely half. Of course, this depends on who you sell it to. But then, this applies to anything you buy NEW -- the quickest drop in value comes the minute it goes from being new to being used. Since most people don't buy something new with the intent of selling it immediately as used, I guess I fail to see your point, unless it's to state that people would be better off (value-wise) to buy things used. Great idea. Not sure who'll be making the new stuff that will eventually become used, though, if everyone followed that line of thinking. > Lets look at it another way... if Commodore prices don't go down then CMD > will go out of business (at least in the US) eventually, If our prices are the ones you're talking about, consider this: If we substantially reduce our prices, we won't be able to afford to stay in (the Commodore) business. I'd rather gamble on maintaining prices that keeps our business alive until such time as there isn't a large enough market to do so than lower prices and be the certain instrument of our own demise. > the current > Commodore users will weigh the cost of having a Commodore system with > 1/2 gig HD, 4mb RL, SwiftLink & 28.8 modem, and an FD-2000 floppy (cost > currently about $1000) against a PC system (486dx4 100mhz for example) > with 1 gig HD, 8mb RAM, Multimedia CD-ROM, 16(32) bit stereo sound, etc. > BRAND NEW for less than that (I've seen systems such as this as low as > $799 in Computer Shopper) and will port over to those systems and stick > the Commodore in the closet or in the trash, or if they are a hard-core > like me (and you!), they might keep it around to play with, but will > soon get bored with the basic c64/128, 1541/1571/1581 setup and lose > interest (I've been there). So, in effect you're saying that Commodore users, on a large scale, will basically turn away from one orphan to start using another orphan? After all, the machine you're talking about is just barely sufficient to run a portion of the programs presently being sold in the Windows market. Within a year, 486 owners will be expected to expand their memory to 24 MB in order to remain current (this is the requirement for running a 486 with Windows NT 4, soon to replace Windows 95 in the market as the operating system that all new software will be written to operate on). If you don't upgrade, then you're ophaned completely in that market, as you won't find software in the mainstream capable of running on your machine for long. Even in the short term, what's the cost to duplicate all the software that Commodore users presently have for their Commodore on that 'inexpensive' 486? Heck, you can add $100 or more right away just to get a word processor. > Anyway, I am not trying to start an arguement here, Nor am I. But just as you are entitled to your OPINION, so is everyone else, myself included. And I definately reserve the right to respond to any posting that would seem to imply that CMD is price-gouging when, in fact, we simply make a reasonable living, and charge what is necessary to maintain our buisness to allow us to continue to innovate. We could all double or triple our salaries by jumping to a mainstream platform, and individually do much less work than we presently do. But then we wouldn't be doing something we enjoy as much as breathing new life into our favorite computers. Doug Cotton email: doug.cotton@the-spa.com ====================================================================== | Creative Micro Designs, Inc. | Orders: (800) 6383-CMD | | P.O. Box 646 | Support: (413) 525-0023 | | East Longmeadow, MA 01028 | Fax: (413) 525-0147 | ---------------------------------------------------------------------- | Visit our WWW Site at: http://www.the-spa.com/cmd/ | ====================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:15:13 -0500 Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: Bruce Subject: Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment -- [ From: Bruce * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Denny wrote: First of all, I normally purchase equipment through want ads, flea markets, and the like. I am used to purchasing C64's for as little as $10 .. ... [Big clip] Denny, I think the objections came because of the commercial intent rather then the low prices. You see, this is not a flea market, nor a garage sale. This is a mailing list. Mailists are one of the few reaches of the Internet that have not yet been corrupted by commercialism. Try making the same original post a few years ago and you would probably have been engulfed by all the flames even if you had offered higher prices. The point is, since C='s are a disappearing breed and this is the only place (the Internet) to really trade with a lot of people buying and selling by individuals is encouraged. But company's will always get flamed, and it very much seems you are a company, not an individual. There are many C= resellers still around and I can't recall any of them coming here and offering wholesale prices for stuff. Now, when you have finished your bbs or tcp/ip or whatever, feel free to post an announcement telling us all about it. But don't be surprised if you get a bad reaction from a bunch of active C= users when you tell them their machine is only worth $10.00. When you find a C=64 at a flea market cheap, it is because it has been abandoned by it's owner. The owner stopped using it. We have not stopped using ours and they are not without value to us and to other active users. Well, I don't mean to rant on, please do not take offense, just trying to explain the reaction you got. Take care, Z ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 21:33:12 -0400 Reply-To: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION Sender: COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION From: Gaelyne Moranec Subject: Re: Shell accounts In-Reply-To: <34960620201943/0005157132DC3EM@MCIMAIL.COM> On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Christopher McLeod wrote: > Can anyone out there recommend a good ISP? I have been using CServe > for my internet searching (w ANSI color), but recently started trying > out an ISP called Concentric Internet Service (or something like > that). > > The problem is that accessing the WWW is MUCH faster through CServe > than it is through this ISP. The ISP is nice because I can do > bookmarks, download files, etc (using LYNX) but reaching the same site > through CServe takes 1/3rd of the time that my ISP does. According to the reports (I'm a Concentric subscriber), the servers are overloaded here and they are supposed to be improving things by July 1st. If you want, I'll keep you posted. > > What gives? I am using NovaTerm 9.5 with a SwiftLink at 9600. Internet meltdown. ;-) BTW, this is EXACTLY what it has been like for me in Australia. You don't think they're trying to make me feel at home do you? I hope not... > What happens on the ISP (for those of you who are familiar with LYNX) > is that the bottom of the screen will say "512 bytes of data received" > and then I will wait for probably 1.5 to 3 minutes and it will not > have changed. This doesn't happen EVERY time but frequently enough to > make it irritating. Other times it "gets" the data successfully, but > much slower than going throug CServe. Welcome to slow city. Yes, this is this my experience here too. To be fair though, when I joined the end of May, it was downright impressive. I'm hoping it'll improve. Lately I save web browsing for Delphi (with its new Lynx25-FM), or GEnie (which has had Lynx for sometime now). On cris/concentric, I use it for the unlimited usuage - which is something I don't have with either GEnie or Delphi. Besides, I found "uqwk.old" on line so I can read mail offline with QWKRR. :-) > Any hope? I always have hope. I hope it gets better as of the 1st of July. Cheers, Gaelyne //\ /\\ Gaelyne R. Moranec (Gasson) Fidonet: || * \ . . / * || 90 Hilliers Rd 1:366/221.128 \\____\X/____// Reynella, S.A. 5161 3:800/809.128 / * /O\ * \ Australia \__/ " \__/ Gaelyne@cris.com / moranec@hal9000.net.au http://www.msen.com/~brain/guest/Gaelyne_Moranec QWKRR: http://www.msen.com/~brain/guest/Gaelyne_Moranec/qwkrr/qtoc.html Speaking only for myself and not for any employers or publications. =END=