10/10/97 Creative Micro Designs RTC 1997 by Genie ========================================================================== This file is brought to you by The Commodore 64/128 RoundTable on Genie This file may be published or excerpted in User Group newsletters providing credit is given in this manner: "Copyright 1997 by Genie From the Commodore 64/128 RoundTable File#:18335" This file maybe be distributed, if distributed whole and unaltered, on non-profit BBS' or non-profit networks. For more information on Genie call by modem: 1-800-638-8369 (8-N-1 300/1200/2400) Enter: HHH Then reply: xtx99018,commrt Then enter: Commodore And enjoy! ========================================================================== ** is here. No, it won't. But there will be a patch to allow GEOS 128 2.0 with the SuperCPU/128. Speak of the devil! Yeah! well, how bout dat!!!!!! Hooray!!! HIGH, DOUG!!!!!! thank you thank you ::takes bow:: Ok, I will move over and let Doug have his seat now. Evening, everyone. ;) Hello Doug! Evening oh great one! Hi Doug Hi, DOUG! :-) Hi Doug :) He's just being fasionably late Gaelyne Gasson sends her greetings and is here in spirit. :: you may all be seated now ::: I don't really have much of an agenda tonight... though I do want to mention that we're just about done with the board layout of the SuperCPU 128, and we'll be moving on to designing a printer interface when that is done. Yes! A printer interface! Printer interface???? A printer interface? Is that because it is hard to find one, or is it going to be spiffed up? For modern printers I hope? Brenda, right now there are no printer interfaces being made. That DOES make them hard to find, and that is the reason, yes. Randy... yes, at this point we plan more modern printer support. I have an idea... you know how the C= interfaces give non-CBM printers Will it have a BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGG buffer? Will it have JiffyDos in it? And I thought the Micro R&D interface was still around. CBM graphics? Well, would it be possible to do something like make LOL! Lou... that's a maybe on the big buffer... if we can do it the way we plan, it might have a 1 MB buffer. newer printers work by grabbing their wierd codes and translating them? Maurice... yes, built-in JiffyDOS. kwould love that buffer Doug's got 10 microphones stuffed in his face. :) 1 MB is big by our standards. LOL! :D JD built into a printer interface?? Surprise to me, too! Brenda... I've already written emulations to let 24-pin printers work correctly, CBM graphics and all. Great! Is it a user port device, or a serial one? Oh yeah! Awesome. thats not really what I meant, but it is closer than what we have now! Serial bus device... for user port, we don't need much beyond what we have, really. Better software support for User Port types would be nice, but we can do that different ways... like in the SuperCPU at some point. user port? What about our modems? er, looking at my user port it is empty:) Killer question... Will it work with bi-directional cables? Post Script support would be a REAL blessing! I didn't think of the software aspects of using the user port. Amen on PostScript All good CMDers have empty user ports, right? ;) Not if geoCABLE is in use! Nope, mine has a Handyscanner hooked up! Mine is barren. ooops :> Yay for geoCABLE. Sounds like everyone here is using a SwiftLink or Turbo232. geoCable and Promenade ae sitting in a drawer. ;) <- SL As for bi-directional centronics, it isn't planned right now. No Postscript planned, either... that would take a much more expensive device. <<<< swiftLink <--- Turbo232 I use BOTH a geoCABLE and an Omnitronix RS-232 interface! What about dip switches, more, less, or maybe none? 8 pin emulation for all printers? (ie in jet) <<< er ink You might want to at least consider having the pins for the bi-dir cable connected to something in the interface for later use. RS-232 for Apple LaserWriter Plus. I have an old VIC-1011 that I used waaaay back when with a Hayes Smartmodem 300. About the same on dip switches, though we don't plan to support a lot of the legacy printers... this will be pretty much Epson and IBM compatible printers, 9 and 24 pin for both. Sounds good! What about HP emulations? Maurice, I think it would take a bigger processor than we have planned right now. why should users buy it that already have interfaces (besides the aforementioned JD) (JiffyDos, Brenda) No HP emulations, no. Sorry, but that gets almost as ugly as postscript... well, maybe not THAT ugly... ;) LOL! Brenda, the main advantages will be the JD and the 24-pin support. And the big buffer if we can make that happen. Does 24 pin mean dot matrix? All these emulations can still be handled within the computer. What will the JD do? Are you saying Doug that the print itself will look sharper, less jagged? So are you saying that the JD will enhance print speed, or more? Yes, Brenda, though that should work with most ink-jets as well. What effect would the JD have in the interface? Easier command line printing? Serial bus speed. Yes, the JiffyDOS will enhance printing speed, much as it does disk speed. Especially if we get a large buffer on-board. ** has left. Does that mean that an ink jet with crummy 8 pin emulation will look better? or just not elongated? Uh-oh!!! Lock the back door! ** is here. Will the HD printer buffering idea ever be resurrected? On our current interfaces, it takes just as long to send 100K of data to a printer as it does to a stock 1541. Patrick... Improvements in print quality are more a function of special drivers... I don't think you'd see any difference between ours and another. Will the interface have built-in fonts? I was wondering if it was the interface or the drivers. Randy, somehow I doubt it will. That idea may be reborn to some degree in the SuperCPU in the future, though. How does JD speed up a printer interface?!?! :) Here's question ... Other than the 24-pin support, JiffyDOS speed, and possibly a large buffer, I don't see this interface as being something very different... but it will at least be available NEW, which nothing else is anymore. True Doug! With Project GEOS giving the 1581 the ability to use CMD's Native mode, I would LOVE to see a 1581 ROM chip upgrade turning it into an FD-1000!! How 'bout it? Neat idea! How about turning my MessyDOS PC into a Commodore? ;) Sure, Lou, just replace the Pentium chip with a JiffyDOS chip! :) I don't forsee us doing it... we discussed this as a project about a year ago, but we weren't sure we'd be able to do everything without upgrading the hardware. Since then, we've more or less filled our schedule with other projects. Actually, emulators are available, but they can never be the real thing. Rats, I think the idea would go over VERY well! I would think it would be cheaper and less hassle just to get an FD. But it is a cool idea Other projects, eh? Could you tell us about the other projects,Doug? I think the problem is we wouldn't know if it would fit until we were well into the project, and if it didn't, it would all be wasted time. I already have 3 FD's! Its just that there are so many 1581's out there that could be upgraded! <- waiting for the laptop 64 ;D Some of the projects are just in-house things we need to get done that take our time... like a new catalog, some database upgrades, and sundry other things. As far as product related projects... Those 81s are good to use for backing up 800K native ramdisks too. Notebook 65 I consider the FD-2000 to be leaps and bounds better than a 1581, FD-1000 or not. I agree! But I still think it's a good idea. So there :-PpPpPp There are some loose ends on the SuperCPU development stuff to finish up, some other planned upgrades for the SuperCPU, finishing the SuperCPU 128, getting GoDot released, the printer interface, possibly a new mouse/trackball interface... Would one of those projects be a North American release of GoDot, Doug? Randy, I agree. It IS very interesting. Plus some work on prototyping our computer. The FD whoops the 81. But it is still a cool idea. GoDot!! Yes,Please! Oops, thanks for answering my question. Do you have an exact release date? I own a SCSI flatbed scanner, and the idea of attaching it to my HD SCSI port makes me wonder. "prototyping oour computer"? The CBM partition code could be chopped out of the 81 rom and CMD native partition code installed in it's place. The CMD Megger? GoDot should be ready in about two weeks. Lou... GUS. ;) Yes! Don't worry about including the 1581's nearly useless CBM partitions Fantastic, Doug. I'll tell GoDot's Arndt Dettke. I'm sorry, but what is GoDot? I don't hardly use '71 or '81 anymore; except to backup HD & RL. Gotta go. just want to say thanks to CMD-Doug, Mu_aurice, and any I might haave missed for the continuing excellent work. bye! Yeah, but how to get the rights to rewrite the code? "GUS", or "guess"? ** has left. GoDot is... well, sort of the 64 equivalant of Photoshop. GoDot is quite wonderful. Photoshop? Brenda, who's gonna care about the code getting rewritten? Robert... he should know... we've been communicating about it over the last few weeks. *somebody* holds the rights. You don't want to get Doug put in jail,do you? How is it any different than doing JD on a 1541 or 1571? Er, maybe that wasn't a good question... ;D Patrick... It's a graphic manipulation and conversion program... GoDot is a graphics manipulation program in which you can apply various effects over the graphic. Ah, thanks! I'll bet nobody can prove who owns the rights to the 81. Maybe Doug will say otherwise. Lou, further modification that the original agreement? I don't know :) ... yeah, and where ARE those lost Q-Link hard drives? ;) If it's their own Native code, no need to worry? Well, I won't say otherwise, but the point appears to be moot from our standpoint. The project was considered, but decided against. Randy, how about a switch to switch between the original 81 rom and a CMD rom, kinda like the JiffyDos chip in the 64 does? Brenda, just anothet from of JD, as I see it (but I am not a legal expert) Good idea! But why bother, just throw the 81 rom away and plug in the CMD rom. How is GUS doing? Doug, how would the printer interface be faster? Because of JD or because Exactly! of the user port? Or buy an FD and give the 81 to your enemy! ;> GUS is sitting around doing nothing right now, until we finish the SCPU 128. ;) Randy, you know if I wanted to, we could have native partitions on the 71, too. :: FAINT! ::: How's the next issue of Commodore World coming? 71's should be outlawed :) That would go good with those native ramdisks in the 1750. YES!!!!! I missed something...GUS? CW #21 is at press right now, and should probably begin shipping around the end of next week. Yea!!!!!!!! uh oh... I think my subscription is up. Will I make this issue if I renew now? Brenda: JD would allow high-speed serial transfer to the printer. :) I'd do it quick, Brenda, and you'll still make the output for shipping labels. Bad Brenda, bad girl! me sorry No, computer to interface. From interface to printer, it's parallel. DOUG, you mentioned prototyping 'your computer.' Meaning your NEW computer, an all in one BIG BAD 64 on steroids!?!? Sorry Robert.... GUS is the CMD computer project. Ah, ok! We forgot to ask... is there a suggested price for the interface? Thanks, Doug. Brenda, nothing set in stone on price yet. Similar to other interfaces, although the big buffer might make that creep up a little if the option is offered. Randy... our own computer. Do we get to know anything about this computer project? Will it be an empty SIMM slot like the SuperRAM card? Well, anything I could say about it at this point would only be conjecture. Um, I realllly don't think we care ;) We'll drool anyway Randy... probably not... if we can do it, we'll probaly use zip RAM... we're trying to fit this into a standard sizeW cartridge case. ill Will Will GUS have 256 or 512K of memory? Or 16 Mb? DOUG: Would you care to conjecture about the new computer's design goals? What does GUS stand for? Graphical User System Geos User System 4K added chop in Panasonic is quite nice! Well, then, none of you heard this... the speculative plan is for 4 MB of RAM, an unknown amount of ROM with on-board apps, some flash memory for upgrades, three 40 MHz 65816 processors, an SVGA controller, a soundblaster compatible sound chip... Big buffers are good, good, good. The 64K in Gold interface on top of the 6 4K added chop in Panasonic is quite nice! ::: chin on the floor ::: ...and backward compatibility? Holy Cow! Built-in ethernet, GUI interface and BASIC command line.... printer and high-speed serial port, on-board hard drive controller, built-in floppy... :: fell off chair :: Will it be announced on April 1st? ... built in Coke dispenser, pizza oven ... YIKES!!!!! Coke dispenser.......Ah! ...and backward compatibility? ::getting tissue to wipe massive drool off keyboard:: HD controller is SCSI I hope, PLEASE not IDE! Probably an option for built-in modem and net-browser/email.... and it will support CD-ROM as well... and yes, we do hope to have a compatibility slot for a Commodore or Apple or other systems. Commodore or Apple or other systems?!?!?!? Gee, almost sounds like a palm top, like a newton.. Sounds like Amiga. Probably IDE Randy... the point is to keep this cheap, though you could add a SCSI controller if you wanted to expand the system. Other systems?!?!???? The Timex-Sinclair 1000? Aaarrrggghhh! Yay for TS-1000. Hey, whatever some third party wants to put in the compatibility slot. Sounds suggestive. GUS: the Universal Computer! Huba huba Though I think mainly it applies itself better for 6502 or 65816-based systems. Um... this sounds like a massive undertaking. Any idea on how many years it will take? (hope not years) That means a SuperNintendo card. Of course, this is all pretty much pie-in-the-sky unless it gets funding. Web browser........ going into coma....... That's right, Doug. Would you be biting off more than you can chew? SuperNintendore64 Timing? Depends on the funding level. If we get what we're looking for there, the project could be done in a year or less. How will you be getting funding? Brenda, in reality, CMD has already achieved much of the technology needed to do this job. We'll be shopping the prototype early next year with venture captialists. Maurice, but what about the "compatibility" slot? Selling stock? Brenda, the slot is the EASY part... it's filling it that takes some work. Are you afraid they will laugh at a 64 compatible machine? I assume it won't be presented as such? That's why the slot. The base machine won't be 64-compatible... that's what the compatibility slot is for. That's an engineering detail that doesn't enter into shopping the project as a whole. Smart move. Anyone who laughs at my 64 or 128, I laugh right back at them! :) Yeah can we buy stock? The basic idea is a modern machine that fills the market that the C-64 and others did in their day... such a machine doesn't exist today, and there IS a market for one. That's very true. Might be better to look a bit laughable. So a person who controlls the CPU industry wouldn't take offence. We don't plan on going public with this, at least initially. That's why we're going the venture capital route for R & D funding. Isn't venture capital the way Apple got started? Yeah, I heard when the CD32 was out, the parts suddenly became scarce. The machine will also ship with a built-in wordprocessor and spreadsheet, so between those and the ability to be a 'net-computer' it fills the common household requirements. Projected cost range? Will GEOS be the operating system? Initially, the base configuration would probably run around $399, though in higher volume (say 1 Million units a year or more) we could get it down to $299. I'd buy one (or several)! Gotta hit Billy-Boy where he ain't lookin' ;) Now it's sounding like a WEB-TV LOL! Randy, the OS will be new, as it will be multi-tasking... though I wouldn't rule out similarities to GEOS for the GUI, and possibly some backwards compatibility with it. Better than Web TV. Right Brenda; look what he did to GEOS. So if it is only compatible with the 64 with a chip... can it do anything out of the box? Snog... but Web-TV doesn't serve as a home computer. That's the difference. (Web-TV also doesn't have local storage, networking, etc.) With three CPU's multi-tasking would be quite possible. Nice! Web-TV doesn't have any personality. Will the WP and SP software be compatible with the MessyDOS world (IE: saving spreadsheets are .DIF files?) Brenda, if the project gets funded, there'll be applications ready when it comes out (besides the ones that we bundle in ROM). I always say, the average user does not need some $2000 powerhouse system Lou, it will take advantage of STANDARDS through-out the OS and hardware design. Lemme ask this a different way... what will the standard OS be, or is there Web TV is part of drive to get computing back to the mainframes. one? Does the added processors give you the ability to have pseudo-custom chips (ala Amiga) without the high development costs of actual custom chips? Doing it in software? That's why I've had my Commie so long, Brenda (besides the fact that I can't give it up). Well, some of us DO need powerhouse systems, just not $2000 ones. That's why we have CMD equipped 64's and 128's! ;-D Brenda, the standard OS is something new (although the BASIC will be... BASIC). ;) Randy, well, I bought my first CMD-HD when it was $1000 for 100meg, so I probably have over $2000 in it ;) Maurice... the added processors allow us to do much more than a single one can do at one time... the OS is not just to be multi-tasking, but multi-processor as well... tasks can be spread to processors that aren't busy at the time. It also lets us dedicate things like I/O, Graphics and Sound away from the main processor. What will the BASIC be like? Will it come with the machine? Coming back down from above the clouds Doug, have you heard anything about the upgrade to Desterm? Expansion slots? How many? Type? Good idea ... the one in my PC gets awfully hot! Design perameters aimed at release date, not at catching up. I think that's what made the '64 Yes on the BASIC... built-in along with the GUI... in fact, you should be able to program by typing in BASIC likd we do now, or by using a 'visual' interface to programming. Will Basic be like the Basic 10 in the C65? I think the BASIC will be a lot like 7.0 in the 128, though with some of the more AmigaBASIC type commands in it... and things like optional line numbers and such. How would it look to program in ML on this machine in native mode? Have you thought about incorporating Basic 8 commands, Doug? Randy... I don't expect a LOT in the way of expansion slots... this thing is probably going into a case about 8 inches deep, 6 inches wide, and 8 inches tall. Keyboard is external... sorry, PC type. "Sorry?" Don't apologize on a separate keyboard, that's a GOOD idea! I consider that a plus. It'll fit on our desks Ahhh...a tower system. Brenda, the ML would be a lot like GEOS programming is now... 65816 ML with a lot of system calls. A standard type keyboard will make typing easier I like lower case apostrophies another reason to learn GEOS :) Robert... we call it a micro tower, since it's much shorter than a mini tower. Ah! A standard tower! Yeah, but I HATE the UPPER case colons!! Yeah, I prefer lower colons, too. The main reason for the keyboard is that they're very inexpensive at this point. We couldn't come close with a custom keyboard to the price. Me too Randy... I'd much rather have uppercase 's than uppercase :s The nice part about sep. keyboards is they are easy to replace! And besides, when someone comes over to see your new computer and they see the same keyboard, they will feel comfortable with it. Doug, do you think there will be a lot of system programming, or more For interfacing external drives and such, we're considering using Firewire. compatibilty stuff? What is Firewire? Brenda? Not sure what you mean there... Now that is forward looking! Interesting...Firewire to connect digital cameras? Do you think people will write software for the new computer first,or try Firewire is a standard Apple came out with some time back for high-speed serial communications to peripherals... it can handle streaming video. to get the compatibility stuff first? What about USB, will that come into play at all? This may sound odd, but when I think of all of the top-notch Commie users who have ditched their C= over the years and are missing these days of the Commodore World, it makes me feel bad for them. They are missing the best. I think our own efforts initially will be to get people writing new stuff for it. It can't hit the right market to make it successful without that. Lou, and I bet most of them don't do as much with their new computers (do they have them) than they did on their commies Randy, we consider USB to be inferior... it requires a hub for multiple devices, and isn't as fast. I agree, LOU. ** is here. In other words, no on USB. ;) Hi QT! Hi QT :) Hi QT. HOWDY, QT! I know SO MANY Beemer users that just play games, yet they call the 64 a "game machine". CueTeeeeeee! Hi everyone Firewire can support up to 64 devices (with hot-swapping) without a hub. Hi QT! WOW! Folks, I need to take a quick break... brb... Well folks, I gotta work in the morning....niters ** has left. brb: putting the child in bed Sure, Doug. Coke refill coming up! afk brb 5 minutes "til showtime! My gosh...I have lots to post to my on-line contacts! On my third can of Coke! Go to our snackbar and enjoy some hot dogs, ice cream, or soda! Pat, the meeting was last night, too. Guess we have something to tell them next time Who here is currently using a C= to access Genie? No more caffeine for me tonight. Yep, maybe that'll wake them up! :) They are nutrious, AND delicious! <-128 I am I am. 128-D! I am <- 64c <<<<<< Cyrix P166 LOU! <-- GUS prototype. ;) I'm back. ;) My modem is detached from my Commie for a few days. :D 128D Doug, really?? Brenda, no, I lied. ;) ...and my SX64 is in sad shape. I am. Well this has been the longest time I have spent here on Genine in a long time! Will CMD be doing the C= compatibility for GUS? Heck Patrick, you've been in here so long you added a character to Genie's name! ;) LOL! Brenda, I can't imagine anyone else doing that better than us. ;) GUS: A 2001 Oddesey Whoops! And I have to get ready to go to work too! :) Hmmm... CMD is modest... but it is true :) bye Pat! BTW DOUG, what DOES GUS stand for officially? 'Nite, Pat No brag-just fact. What about (c) considerations for the various compatibility options? Not yet, staying to the last few minutes. The socket for that will allow us to put a SID and VIC on the board, and feed the video and audio outputs to the on-board chips for mixing with the on-board video and audio outputs.