Copyright 1994 by GEnie
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_
_                          JIM BUTTERFIELD
_
_On April 19,1994. the GEnie's Commodore RoundTable had Jim Butterfield in as a guest speaker.  Mr. Butterfield is internationally known for his writing, programming, teaching, and speaking accomplishments in the computer field. His efforts are mainly notable in the Commodore arena of expertise.

This transcript brings out many of the benchmarks of his career, as well as illustrates his commanding grasp of programming innovation.  It will also become evident why people would drive hundreds of miles to hear him speak. Our conference  team of C128.QT.PIE, THE.OUTLAW, and GEOS-TIM hope you enjoy this transcript.  Look for transcripts of other guest speakers in this series of conferences with the search words: GEOS-TIM or THE.OUTLAW.
_
_                                              :) -Tim
_
_                                 CONFERENCE HOST  :   GEOS-TIM
_                                 CAPTURE & EDIT   :   THE.OUTLAW
_                                 CONFERENCE INFO  :   C128.QT.PIE
_******************************************************************************
The following is a list of most of folks who attended the conference this evening:


Active users in ALL Rooms
Job     City         Room Sta Mail-Address  
  1 Clarkston,MI        6   L GEOS-TIM
  2 Natrona height,PA   6   N [Sherry] C128-QT.PIE
  3 Belleville,MI       6   N R.DAY
  4 Colorado sprin,CO   6   N [Capt Commodo] W.HUGHES1
  5 Pembroke,NC         6   N [C=Hacking] C.TAYLOR37
  6 Salem,MA            6   N [JIM] CBM-PRESS
  7 East longmeado,MA   6   N [I'm Not] CMD-DOUG
  8 Crown point,IN      6   N R.BOYLES2
  9 Hamilton,OH         6   N D.WITMER2
 10 Salem,MA            6   N C128.JBEE
 11 Wacko,TX            6   N THE.OUTLAW
 12 Gig harbor,WA       6   N S.EYRSE
 13 Nashua,NH           6   N BACCHUS
 14 Cleveland,OH        6   N [Sam] S.ARTINO
 15 Goshen,NH           6   N [Arthur] A.JILLETTE
 16 Charlotte,MI        6   N [ARCA 93] M.RANDALL2
 17 Jamesburg,NJ        6   N R.NEAZER
 18 Baltimore,MD        6   N [Fred] F.OGLE
 19 Villas,NJ           6   N T.FULK
 22 Baltimore,MD        6   N [Tony] A.TOLLE
 23 Hephzibah,GA        6   N D.KINING
 20 El paso,TX          6   N F.WILSON4
 21 Albany,IN           6   N D.GILSTRAP
 22 Baltimore,MD        6   N [Tony] A.TOLLE
 25 Shelton,WA          6   N T.GOSSER1


<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> ..is this where I say, "Good evening?"

<GEOS-TIM> Yes,

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Good evening.

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Nice to be here, looks like we have a good crowd. Since I'm new here, perhaps you can tell me how things go from here.

<GEOS-TIM> I have a few questions, and then we will be going to the floor

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Good.  It might be worth while noting... I do not work for Commodore, and never have  ..so I can't speak for them in any way.  Go, Tim.

<GEOS-TIM> Jim, I was reading an old RUN magazine, where they interviewed you (Oct 1986, Gail Hook Interviewed you, I found it very interesting. It said you had given up a 2 year career in CN/CKP telecommunications to devote your time to theCommodore hobby. Can you tell a little about how you got into this business?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Well, I'll have to go back a bit for that... In about 1963, I became a programmer.  Not on a business machine...with those newfangled classy languages Fortran and Cobol.. but instead on a real-time beast that had to be worked in Machine Language.  A few years later, I moved on to other areas.  But when microcomputers started to appear in 1976, it was (for me)like a return to the good old days. I restarted on a KIM-1 machine, one of the first 6502 boards .. 1K of RAM, 2k of ROM .. and it could play chess... Because it was about the first factory-assembled system, it was also the starting point for a user community.  "Kim-1 User Notes"was a popular newsletter (for its era), and later I collaborated on
a book called "The First Book of KIM"  (a much-copied title style).   Now:  Commodore acquired the manufacturer of the KIM-1, and was persuaded to launch "the first personal computer, the PET".  Still used a 6502 chip.  I'd programmed before, and had become familiar with the chip.  Seemed to me that I was well qualified to help others get their
computer acts together.  So that's what I have been doing for the past fifteen years or so.

<GEOS-TIM> I noticed that you were a consultant, a writer, a public speaker, etc. What is Jim Butterfield doing in the computer field now?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> As you may have noticed, things have slowed down in the field of Commodore-style computers.  It's a shame, really, since a lot of

<GEOS-TIM> that's for sure

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS>= the newer computers are "load it, use it, and turn it off"
types. Not half the fun of the 64 and earlier machines, where we were invited to play around with the inner workings.  But, to answer your question more directly:  I still write a column for the Compute Gazette (now on disk).  And I do odd jobs on "other" systems.  Even the clumsy ones like the clones.  Sigh.

<GEOS-TIM> :/ I only have a couple of more questions....I know that there are some folks that are dieing to ask a questions. The article talks about your interest in the GEOS demonstrations in San Francisco the year it came out. My perception is that you never went into GEOS, Why didn'T you?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> GEOS is a well-conceived system, and I think that Berkeley Softworks did a fine job (except, maybe, for overdoing copy protection). But my lack of activity in that area was mostly because I also have an Amiga.  Fine though GEOS may be, when you're going to do that type of graphics work, you'll grab an Amiga if you have one.  No reflection on GEOS:  it's just that the Amiga has more horsepower in that area, and that makes things easier.

<GEOS-TIM> Okay, that brings up my last question for now. What computers do you own, and how do you use them?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> 1. Commodore 128.  Used for general programming and fooling around..... and for preparing the M/L articles that I do for the Gazette.                        2. Amiga 2000 with HUGE memory.  Great platform for messing around with great amounts of data (hey, 8 megs is NOTHING on an MS-DOS platform, but it's LOTS on an Amiga!)  The 2000 is still on an older operating system (1.3); I really have to upgrade it some day soon.
                  3. An Amiga 600 with hard disk.  This is where I do newer-op-system stuff when I need to.  But I'm running on a measly 2 megs. (yes, I know - that sounds like MASSIVE memory to a 64/128 type).
                  4. A small and quite ancient MS-DOS machine.  I do a few jobs that need software available only in MS-DOS.  Also, this machine has an internal modem that is quite fast, so I often let it do the telecomms jobs... All four of the above are networked together, so I pass data back and forth between them.
                  5,6,7,... Not set up for daily use, I have an extra 64, a
B128, a B256, a PET 8032, a couple of PET dual disks, stuff like that. Just in case I come across something that needs me to look way back. Hard to find room for more than three or four operating computers and their peripherals and screens.  Gets cluttered.

<GEOS-TIM>   Interesting....I always wanted to ask that question.  BTW, We have massive memory thanks to CMD now.  I have 9 megs on my 128. It is great to have that additional memory

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Yes, I have been watching the 64/128 extension facilites that have been coming into use... I hesitate to get into them, mostly because I fear that writing stuff for these extended systems will be writing for a minority.  I fear most users are still on original systems.

<GEOS-TIM> They are pretty compatible with most C= systems. Now, I will go to the floor. Craig Taylor has a question.

<[C=Hacking] C.TAYLOR37> Okay - 2 questions actually if I may: 1st - What do
you think of the current financial situation at C= and the impact it will have
on the C= users? (ie: C= possibly filing bankruptcy due to stock price)

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> It's of concern to all of us, of course.  There has been no
word for a couple of weeks now.  Best rumor I have come across so far is that
Philips (Netherlands) is interested in linking up; but that's just a rumor.

<[C=Hacking] C.TAYLOR37> And 2nd: (curious) How do you network the machines
together?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> It doesn't reflect well on Commodore's fiscal practices over
the past few years .. but C= has always been something of a wild-financed
company.    I network my machines together in a combination of ways. 
Some of them go modem-to-modem (not too fast, but it works fine).  Others can
pass information on disk - for example, an Amiga bridgeboard can pass MS-DOS
disk data into the Amiga itself.  But I can get info from anywhere to anywhere.

<GEOS-TIM> Frank has a question

<[Frank] BUFF.PHOON> Call me dumb, but what is a "B128" and a "B256"?  BTW, it is great seeing you here on GEnie.  I have a couple of your programs that I  got back when I also on Q-link.  

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Just about the time that IBM announced their PC, Commdore had been working on a souped-up "PET-CBM":  8 bits, very fast clock, lots of memory (128 or 256K), at least for that time... They couldn't get the bank-switching operating system to work, however, and that delayed the machines'    intro for almost two years.  Too late:  there was little market for these machines. They were "blown out the back door" to mail order houses,
and many users bought 'em and loved 'em.  But they were orphans the day they
were sold.

<GEOS-TIM> Bacchus has a question

<BACCHUS> Thank you :) Jim, it's following your articles that made an engineer out of a gas station attendent. What I'm curious to know is how you see Commodore 8-bit computers fitting into the cybernetic scene 10 and 20 years from now.

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> I've always preached that programming is not hard.  Takes
careful attention and a certain turn of mind, but ANYONE can try their hand at
it. Now .. about the 8 bits... I fear that we are into computer "fashion" rather than questions of technical excellence here.  Just as, with VCRs, most people see BetaMax as technically superior to VHS, the tech arguments counted for little. The 8-bit computers will work for a long time, and would
always present a cost-effective way of taking on some kinds of work.  But I
fear they are out of fashion, and we won't see too many new ones.

<BACCHUS> Why do you qualify beemers as "clumsy"?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS>   Small computers are now being put to a task called "process" contf6502 has done great work there.  But newer process control chips are becoming popular, and will certainly replace the 6502 family. But 64s will still work for many years - decades - and will
have loving owners.  And they will not lose their place in home computing
history. Not sure I said clumsy, exactly, but that's not a bad work. The original PC design was planned for a small machine:  thus, 640K was the maximum memory ever imagined, and programs had trouble reaching over a span of more than 64K of data... The huge MS-DOS machines that exist now have had their extra features grafted on top of this uncomfortable early   architecture.  The new machines are powerful, but, well, clumsy.

<GEOS-TIM> Tony Tolle has a question... go ahead Tony

<[Tony] A.TOLLE> First of all, its nice to meet you "in person" Jim  :)  My
question is whether or not you think that Commodore could top themselves again
by producing a computer that is as much of a "work horse" as the C64 was...
Topping the Amiga even? I should have said as the C64 is, not was.  :)

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS>   There's currently no sign that Commodore will be coming out with a world beater, except for their (Amiga-related) CD-32, a game machine that has it's really a stripped Amiga... The CD-32 can (will) be expandable to make a fairly powerful Amiga, but it's hard to compare it to the honored 64. But Commodore engineers have always come up with surprises,
and they may well pull another rabbit out of the hat.  Once they get their hat
out of hock.

<[Tony] A.TOLLE> If I may ask another quick related question...

<GEOS-TIM> Go ahead Tony  

<[Tony] A.TOLLE> Do you forsee an end in the future to the PC domination of the market, with its more and more complex decendents such as the Pentium?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS>   The PC market is on the brink of a significant change that
may get them out of the staid old MS-DOS straight jacket.  Not sure if I should go on about it much in this kind of forum, but... Many industry observers are saying (1) the new PowerPC (RISC-type) chip may finally liberate the PC from the tyranny of intel designs, and... (2) Windows has a chance of becoming a "decent" operating system when the new "Chicago" system is released by Microsoft.  They seem to have their act together on this one.

<[Tony] A.TOLLE> Thanks for you time :)

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS>   I still love the elegance of the Amiga, which can do in 1 MEG what it takes MS-DOS and OS/2 machines 4 megs and more to accomplish.  But the Amiga is not taking much of a piece of the market.

<GEOS-TIM> Our own QT....Sherry has a question.......

<[Sherry] C128-QT.PIE> Hi Jim!!!

<C128.JBEE> of course with over 70% of the CPu market worldwide and almost all of the US market, Intel 8xxxx will be here for awhile.

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> HI!

<[Sherry] C128-QT.PIE> I have a quick question. Does your family also share in your interest of Commodore Computers?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS>   My wife regards computers as something of a harmless aberration; I suspect she considers it less harmful and less costly than drinking...

<[Sherry] C128-QT.PIE> giggle

<GEOS-TIM>                        LOL

<[Sherry] C128-QT.PIE> Do you have children?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS>   My five-year-old daughter is getting quite interested in computers (I'm not pushing) and may get her own soon.

<[Sherry] C128-QT.PIE> I have an eight year old. I have been introducing her to computers with my Commodore 64 which she has now taken over and now calls her own.

<GEOS-TIM> How do you program an 8 year old.LOL

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> JBEE:  have you seen what they are doing with 8xxxx emulation on the PowerPC?  Intel may not be all THAT secure.  But it's all speculation yet.

<[Sherry] C128-QT.PIE> That's all I have

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Sherry, little Susannah loves drawing on the computer .. and occasionally likes educational programs.

<C128.JBEE> yes, as a matter of fact, after I buy my new HP printers, a Power Mac is on my list :) though I think the $700 price for the emulation will be about $200 in a year or so ! BTW: pretty good chance of a Power PC - 64 emulator :X

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> As I said, this may not be the place to take PC discussions too far .. but the prospect of emulating 80xxx user code and doing the op system in native code sounds intriguing.

<GEOS-TIM> D.Kining has a question

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> 64 Emulators have appeared on the PC, and by all reports are pretty decent.  Could be done better on a PowerPC, of course.  Big trick;  the sound, graphics and sprites.

<D.KINING> Hope noone has asked this. Lost 8 min due to bug in Novaterm 9.5 buffer. Ok. Some freinds of mine debated where the Comodore would be had CBM continued to upgrade the 64 and 128 as IBM had

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Ask again.  If it was asked before, I'll give a different answer.

<GEOS-TIM> LOL

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Commodore almost did.  Have you heard about the C65?

<D.KINING> done with its Personal Computers. Had Commodore with its early success built on it, would it be where IBMs are now in your opinion?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> The barrier, of course, is the 64K addressing space.  To get more, you have toplit memory up into "banks".  That makes the innards complex. (have to split)... Sorry, (have to split) was a correction of the previous line.. didn't mean I had to go.  Sorry... (Scared the heck outta GEOS-TIM, though).

<GEOS-TIM> Sure did. LOL

<D.KINING> I figured it was a restroom break.

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Ummm ... picking up on that last bit...

<GEOS-TIM> LOL

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> If, like Intel, you can design a new processor that includes the old one as a subset, you can do an upgrade.  I suppose that Comddore could have done that.  But it seems to me that C= never got the hang of selling to business.

<GEOS-TIM> Fred Wilson doesn't have a question, but wanted to say a few words. Fred is a helicopter pilot for the Army I just wanted to say hi and sorry I am late

<GEOS-TIM> No problem...dl the transcripts.:D

<F.WILSON4> I had to get the kid some puppies

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Puppies?  Plural?

<F.WILSON4> Yes 2, some reason to be late 

<GEOS-TIM>  no problem... Doug Cotton has a question.  Doug is from CMD that supplies great new hardware

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> That's OK, Fred.  We were saving the good stuff until you came.

<[I'm Not] CMD-DOUG> What do you see as being the worst situation current Commodore 64/128 users face, and what can they do to ease this situation? Oh, and do you still have that "I'm Not Jim Oldfield" tee-shirt? :)

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Yes, I do.  And Jim Oldfield still has that "I'm Not Jim Butterfield" one. Being orphaned is never fun, of course.  It makes obtaining ANYTHING harder... As I see it, the most serious thing would be that users could no longer get the custom chips used by the 64 and 128.  Say, the PLA, the SID, and some similar.

<GEOS-TIM> Bacchus has another question.:D

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS>   There may be a second-source possibility; but stockpiling older machines may also be a good move for the 64/128 community.

<BACCHUS> I'm curious about the C65.. I thought that was just a rumour being bandied about on the Usenet.... what kind of scheme did it use?

<C128.JBEE> of course with 12 million+  C-64s and 4 million+ C-128s, spare units are easier and cheaper than buying chips :)

<BACCHUS> (I mean, virtual 6502 machines, bank switching..?)

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> A pretty solid rumor .. Commodore made a few dozens, prototypes, of the C65 and recently blew them out of the back door.  There are quite a few proud new C65 owners trying to find out how the insides of their machines work.  And, being prototypes, they are NOT all identical. JBEE:  yes, cannibalization is the keyword of the future, I think.  the C65 has a new custom processor chip with a LOT of new instructions that never existed before, not even in other "clone" chips.... and it has a new colour screen capability... and it can be clocked at a MUCH higher rate .. and, yes, it does have bank switching..... there are 255 bank numbers,  although I don't think you can really put that many in.  And the machine can be triggered to be a 64 (as does the 128).

<GEOS-TIM> Steve Eyrse has a question.  Steve programs in GEOS

<S.EYRSE> Hi Jim nice to KEY at you...Bankswitching ?  could I hear more on
this as I have a 64 but am working on a thing for 128

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Well, this was a reference to the C65.  In the time I played with a friends's unit, I noted only that the Machine Language Monitor required addresses to be prefixed with a (two-hex-digit) bank number.  I think the machine had about 256K and some ROM at that time. (And it had TWO stacks instead of one.  Don't ask HOW). Do you have a special interest in 128 bank switching as such?

<S.EYRSE> wow that would be handy.. But in the 128. Will it just put "part" of the program in a "bank" and then have the main point to it? well yes I need to find where GEos Write for 128 put stuff and gets to it..

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Bank numbers are decptive on the 128.  Bank 15, for example, means:  Bank 0 from $0000 to $3FFF, then ROM from $4000 to $FFFF (with some minor exceptions). There are 16 bank numbers on the 128, many of which are not useful.  But you can create other mixtures of banks yourself, with a POKE to, I think, $FFF0.

<S.EYRSE> So to get to other "banks" I quess this would be upper memory with this poke you can adress more or NEW programs??

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS>   Lemme see .. the only BANK numbers (from Basic) that are any user are 0, 1, 14 and 15.  But you can create other Great combinations with a POKE to $FF00 (that's correct, not the one given before). This gets sufficiently detailed that maybe we should pick up this on EMail n hit everyone here with it.  I'll be on this system for a few days more.

<S.EYRSE> OK great...:)  thanks Jim.

<GEOS-TIM> Tony Tolle, Color 64  programmer, has a commment.

<[Tony] A.TOLLE> I wanted to comment about the two stacks on the C65.  I know that the C128 has a special software driven stack for BASIC... so is it possible that they implemented another  hardware stack for BASIC on the c65> Using new ML instructions, that is?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> The stacks are both in hardware.  Easiest way to describe it is:  remember you can get the stack pointer with TSX?  You can now get the OTHER one with TSY (new instruction).  The stack contents themselves, of course, are still in RAM.

<[Tony] A.TOLLE> Are there then two different PHA instructions one for each stack, then?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> No, not as I recall.  I wasn't able to dig out exactly how the other stack is operated.  It MIGHT be used to stack ALL registers .. there are some new instructions that may do something like that. The new stack itself is at a different address, around $1000 I believe.

<[Tony] A.TOLLE> That would certainly be helpful in a bank-switching system, for keeping track of bank numbers too perhaps?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> It might be.  I was not able to successfully start a code fragment from the MLM or I might have figured out more.

<[Tony] A.TOLLE> Thanks again :)

<GEOS-TIM> Sherry, adding a woman's touch, has a question.

<[Sherry] C128-QT.PIE> Jim, what was the best piece of software you have ever used for the Commodore 64?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS>   I am impressed by programs that have both technical excellence and aesthetic appeal.  "Best" is a relative term.  I think GEOS was brilliantly conceived and executed.  I loved LITTLE COMPUTER PEOPLE and JUMPMAN.  But I seldom run any of these.

<[Sherry] C128-QT.PIE> I still have Little Computer People :)

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS>   I mostly run my own stuff.  That isn't even for reasons of excellence; it's just that I'm comfortable with my own programs.

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> (And I try to target my programs for DUMB users .. which is what I turn out to be later when I use them).   :)

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> LCP?  Great idea, great program, right?

<GEOS-TIM> Speaking of your own program, I counted 144 in a special collection of yours.

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> There may well be that many around.  I think that perhaps eight of them could be considered well-used classics.

<GEOS-TIM> And they are? Sorry to put your memory on the spot.LOL

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Let's see:  SuperMon, Copy-All, UniCopy .. then some disk utilties .. oddly, one of the programs I was most pleased with is FileSort, which is almost unknown. I'd have to start looking at my own disks to see which ones are the active ones.

<GEOS-TIM> :D

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> I have written a lot of stuff as "illustrative coding" - less for the program usefulness, but to show how to go about a certain job. Fire away.

<GEOS-TIM> Cam Stewart, a host in this RTC, and the person making the transcript for the Conference has a question.

** <GEOS-TIM> THE.OUTLAW, you can talk now.

<C128.JBEE> string thing^

<GEOS-TIM> Treat him nice.LOL

<THE.OUTLAW> Hi Jim, do you have a favorite magazine for 64 use? if so why?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Gosh, they are mostly ex-magazines now      :(    ... I still keep my transactor back issues nearby, for reference. Funny thing, I don't think I get ANY these days, not even the one I write for (the Gazette Disk .. their mailing list is REAL muddled).

<C128.JBEE> think one appeal of the Transactors were the excellent covers and no nonsense text layout on the inside?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> My emphasis has always been "how-to-make-it-do-this" rather than "load-this-program-and-run-it", which is popular these days. Yes the Transactor had a no-nonsense bunch of editors, and they wanted FACTS and more FACTS in their mag.  Makes those back issues still valuable. Their no-ad policy didn't matter to me one way or the other. But I fear they didn't make enough money to survive.

<GEOS-TIM> There are some things to be said for advertising.

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> I kinda like ads.  Nice to know what people are making/selling/asking.

<GEOS-TIM> Fred Ogle, Co-Owner of Color 64 BBS, has a question.

<[Fred] F.OGLE> A couple quickies ...  1:  Which single program of yours recieves the most positive feedback from users, and ... 2: Which of your many programs do you like the most (and why)? ... BTW, my favorites are the CROSS-REF 64/128, and GRUNGY TOWERS :)

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Gosh, forgot about CROSS-REF before .. yes, that's a nice one. Most positive feedback?  Likely UNICOPY, since moving files around is one of the most important things you do and UNICOPY is fairly foolproof (hey, I can't fumble it up myself).... although hard disks systems have often adapted my COPY-ALL (multiple drive copier), and when you have a HD that's real handy. Like most?  Maybe FileSort, as I noted earlier.  Grabs a "standard" type file, sorts it, and writes the result.  Understands about computer-related stuff, like multiple fields, numeric/alpha, and ascending/descending.  And ran perfectly the first time I wrote it.  Well, almost.

<[Fred] F.OGLE> I would also like to say thanks as well.  I think you have inspired many users to become programmers, and your unselfish nature has helped set the tone for Commodore user support :)

<GEOS-TIM> bravo....

<[Fred] F.OGLE> :)

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS>   From time to time, I'm also pleased with my SCREENMAP programs, just 'cause they seem to helpfully cover all the things you're  trying to figure out when you're trying to put a screen somewher in memory. Well, we're all here to stand on each other's shoulders.

<GEOS-TIM> Doug Cotton, Innovator of great hardware for the 64/128's, has a question.

<[I'm Not] CMD-DOUG> What is the status on your ML book? Is this still available or in print? If not, have you considered trying to get it published again, or are the distribution rights tied up? Oh, and we'll get you on some C= magazine mailing lists. :)

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> (Gosh, was there a third part of that questions?  If so, I have forgotten it). Havn't heard from the publisher in six years or more.  Since they haven't paid royalties in that time, suspect the rights revert.  But copies turn up here and there from time to time. Maybe I'll have to release the floppy-disk containing the manuscript some time.

<[I'm Not] CMD-DOUG> That would be a REAL BOON to beginners!

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Gosh, but i's nice to have the paper.  That big reference section in the back was for MY OWN use .. I still dig in there from time to time.

<GEOS-TIM> Tony Tolle, The other Co-Owner of Color 64 BBS, has another question.

<[Tony] A.TOLLE> I have one general and one technical question...  First, what was the largest project (as far as size and complexity) that you have ever tackled? On the C64 that is.

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> It may not be what your question indends, but the biggest single job on microscomputers was working the disassemblies and memory maps for the first Commodore computers.  Back then, we had NO information and had to dig it out the hard way. By the time I hit the 64, the job was almost automatic, though.

<[Tony] A.TOLLE> Second, I am still looking for the RENUMBER program to beat all other RENUMBER programs...  what is the best that you have used? (Most have shortcomings as far as doing ranges or moving ranges).

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> The most complex program?  perhaps SUPERMON?  CROSS-REF?  Not sure. Long ago, Brad Templeton did a four-parameter renumber as part of the PAL utility.  The parameters were more or less backwards:  line increment, new starting number, old line range.  It worked sufficiently well that I never bothered writing one of my own.... The question arises:  should a renumber facility of that type also physically move a line to a new position?  And/or:  should it make a copy of a group of lines, placing the copy in a new location?  The possibilities get wild.  but then again, the complexity of typing in the right command gets tough.

<[Tony] A.TOLLE> OK thanks...  one other thing... I know Microsoft actually had a hand in writing the BASIC code for the early Commodore computers, but does anyone know who actually sat down and wrote the C64's ROMs?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS>   I wonder if some of the newer Basics have the right idea.  No line numbers; and you can cut, paste, and copy lines as you wish. I am sure that Chuck Peddle laid out most of the structures.  The writing was done by a team, and I don't know to whom top credit should be given.... but, for example, Chuck originated the IEEE-488/smart peripheral idea.

<[Tony] A.TOLLE> Do you think Commodore should have stuck with IEEE for the C64?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS>   Microsoft did indeed write the Basic, and got paid a flat fee.  After royalties started coming in from other machines, they were REALLY annoyed that Commodore got that deal. The IEEE cable was a problem.  At one point, it became unavailable and Commodore almost went out of business (they had the computers and the disk drives, but no cables to hook 'em up!).  Thus, the serial bus was born.

<[Tony] A.TOLLE> I see.  Thanks for answering some long-unanswered questions  :)

<GEOS-TIM> Tim Hewelt, host of this conference, has a question.... Jim, I read how people used to come from as far as Conneticut to TPUG meetings because you were speaking at them.  Are you still active in TPUG?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS>   I am still a friend of TPUG, and still show up from time to time at their meetings.  TPUG is mostly a volunteer organization now, much scaled down.... I never held office in TPUG (I ain't that dumb), but I did supply as much assistance as I could.

<GEOS-TIM> One last question from Bacchuss

<BACCHUS> Thanks :) Does TPUG have an Inet address?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Bacchus:  They do, but I don't have it right now.  EMail me and I'll get back to you.

<BACCHUS> Thanks :)

<GEOS-TIM> Before I open up the meeting...I'd liketo thank Jim Butterfield for being here.

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> GEOS-TIM:  No problem with a message thread.  Considering that question about 128 bank switching, maybe I should start a thread on that, too.

<GEOS-TIM> It was very informative, and I see why you are held in such high regard from all that have met you.

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> awwww ... shucks.

<GEOS-TIM> Jim will be having a message thread going this weeek in the BB if you have any further questions.

** <GEOS-TIM> Room is now in the talk mode.

<BACCHUS> Jim: THANKS!! :)

<GEOS-TIM> You can talk now gang.....:d

<THE.OUTLAW> Thanks jim! :>

** <[Ok - I am] CMD-DOUG> was <[I'm Not] CMD-DOUG>.

<[ARCA 93] M.RANDALL2> I think we have a standing ovation going here. Thank you Mr. Butterfield.

<GEOS-TIM> I want to thank you all for being here

<[Ok - I am] CMD-DOUG> ::applause::

<C128.JBEE> clap:clap:clap

<[Sherry] C128-QT.PIE> <--would also like to thank GEOS-TIM for a being a great HOST!

<GEOS-TIM> Yes:::::clap:::clap:::::clap:::clap

<BACCHUS> I kid you not, folx.. NOBODY writes a magazine article about "how to git it to do it" like Jim does.

<[Sherry] C128-QT.PIE> ::BIG APPLAUSE::

<GEOS-TIM> Thanks Sherry

<C128.JBEE> Jim, I keep seeing your picture in overseas magazines like ICPUG, do you make it a habit of attending overseas computer shows?

<R.NEAZER> Tim...How do you DO IT????

<GEOS-TIM> Do what?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> If I go over, I usually look up the ICPUG group.  They are great fun.. wish I had time to go on one of their "trips to Lourdes" that come up occasionally.

<R.NEAZER> How did you get Jim here?

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Blackmail.

<GEOS-TIM> Trade secret.

<[Sherry] C128-QT.PIE> giggle

<GEOS-TIM> Yes, I threatened to come and stay the weekend

<R.NEAZER> He must pay well !!

<[Ok - I am] CMD-DOUG> Ah. And I thought he only hung a steak around his neck...

<[Tony] A.TOLLE> Found the secret "c65-gate" tapes eh, Tim?

<C128.JBEE> there is a big computer show coming up in the fall in Germany -sounds like great fun, thinking of attending myself

<GEOS-TIM> The steak is only so my dog will like me yup, Tony

<[Ok - I am] CMD-DOUG> I get it. :)

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> If it's the Hanover fair (think that's in the Spring, though), it is MOBBED!

<[Ok - I am] CMD-DOUG> Well, folks, I for one have to get back to inventing  better mouse driver....had to give up on the better mouse trap.

<C128.JBEE> no, hold on, got it on disk somewhere ....

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Not that closely in touch with Germany, but there's usually a trade show of some sort or another going on in Britain.

<GEOS-TIM> I think I should order one of those mice

<[Tony] A.TOLLE> Doug...

<[Ok - I am] CMD-DOUG> You should, yes....

<[Sherry] C128-QT.PIE> Bye Doug!

<[Ok - I am] CMD-DOUG> :) Tony?

<[ARCA 93] M.RANDALL2> You're supposed to have two computers running at the same time here, Doug.

<[Tony] A.TOLLE> Do you think you could do one of those "intuitive" drivers like on the PC... the

<[JIM] CBM-PRESS> Think I'll fold my tent and steal away into the night ...  night all.

<[Sherry] C128-QT.PIE> Bye Jim!!!
** <[JIM] CBM-PRESS> has left.


******************************************************************************
Three of the other conferences from the series Tim mentioned and below that a couple of early Fred Bowen Conferences, for those who'd like to compare then & now......

Happy Reading --  The.Outlaw :>

  No. File Name             Type Address      YYMMDD Bytes   Access Lib
----- ------------------------ - ------------ ------ ------- ------ ---

14163 COLLETTE.TXT             X GEOS-TIM     940123   36864     93  33
      Desc: transcript of collette conf.12/93
14395 ROSSICONF.SFX            X GEOS-TIM     940220   26240     82  33
      Desc: A transcript of the Nick Rossi Conf.
14418 BOWEN.CON.TXT            X GEOS-TIM     940225   28544     63  33
      Desc: Transcript of Bowen Conference.


 6919 BOWENCONF.TXT            X DO-RAE-MI    890510   20160     44  33
      Desc: Conference with Fred Bowen 5/7/89
 4539 C-128 CONF BOWEN 7/21    X SPARROW.J    870726   25200     76  33
      Desc:  Fred Bowen drops by to chat
 5610 FRED BOWEN 128CO 23 FEB  X DEB          880301   28980     86  33
      Desc: Transcript from Last WEek's 128 CO
 3535 FRED BOWEN'S CONFERENCE  X DEB          870306   23940    180  33
      Desc: The edited Transcript of the CO