Copyright 1994 by GEnie =============================================================================== This file is brought to you by The Commodore 64/128 RoundTable on GEnie For more information call by modem: 1-800-638-8369 (8-N-1 300/1200/2400) Upon connection Enter: HHH Then at the U#= prompt reply: xtx99018,commrt Then once connected enter: Commodore and enjoy ! GEOS RTC Night Tuesday Date: 940222=================================================================== Transcript of the Fred Bowen Conference - With your Host GEOS-TIM - Conference Capture and Editing by THE.OUTLAW - User instructions given by C128-QT.PIE Tuesday 2-22-94 Fred Bowen - Commodore Business Machines Engineer This is one in a series of conferences with people who have or have had an impact on the 64/128 Commodore world. Fred Bowen is an engineer that helped bring us the Commodore products that we have come to know. The transcripts havebeen edited by Cam Stewart, with finish editing by Tim Hewelt. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ** is here. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Hi Fred Hi Fred :) <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Glad to see you made it....some folks were having troublelogging on tonightl Welcome!!! Hiya, Tim everyone give a welcome to Mats, he is signing in from Germany :) Hi T.Gosser1 <[brat] C.EFTHIMIOU> hi mats Hi Mats!!! :) well, I gI IHi back.. :) Hi Mats <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Hi Mats Talk about staying up late! Hi Mats! Hi T. Gosser1 <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> That is great. What time is it there Mats? Hello and I bet I know what is questions will be on :> Better: staying up early in the morning Hi Tom :-) Hi fred :) Its 4, quite early.. Hi Joh <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> You read my mind, Mat wow - 4am is when I go to bed :D ** is here. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Hi Tom <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Welcome to the Fred Bowen Conference !!! <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> We are about 7 minutes from getting to the nity gritty Thanks Tim :) Hi Maurice! Hi Maurice! <[Maurice] M.RANDALL2> Hi everyone. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Pull up a seat, Get out your questions, and we will roll <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Hi Maurice <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> We will be going into listening mode in about 30 seconds Hi Reub, Chuck, Maurice ** <[Chuck] C.GRIFOR> was . ** <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Room is now listen-only. Active users in ALL Rooms Job City Room Sta Mail-Address 1 Clarkston,MI 6 L [Your Host] GEOS-TIM 2 Natrona height,PA 6 N C128-QT.PIE 3 Wacko,TX 6 N THE.OUTLAW 4 Dresden, 6 N [mats] M.MATTING 5 Salem,MA 6 N C128.JBEE 6 Hamilton,OH 6 N D.WITMER2 7 Crown point,IN 6 N R.BOYLES2 8 West chester,PA 6 N FREDBOWEN 9 Bx,NY 6 N C.EFTHIMIOU 10 Pikesville,MD 6 N GUNTER 11 Shelton,WA 6 N T.GOSSER1 12 Brentwood,MD 6 N TOM.PATCH 13 Charlotte,MI 6 N [Maurice] M.RANDALL2 14 Jamesburg,NJ 6 N R.NEAZER 15 Milford,MI 6 N [Chuck] C.GRIFOR <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Good evening... Tonight we have Fred Bowen from Commodore Business Machines...with his bells on I know I promised to be here with bells on... but it was one of those days. I worked my bells off, I'm afraid. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> You mean you don't? <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> LOL And let me apologise in advance for a rather nasty, noisy line. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Fred, I guess I'll ask the first question. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> What is new at Commodore? NHeh, well every day I get to work seems like a "new" day. While there are lots of little elfen at work on bright, shiney toys things have been moving slowly, but steadily. Just what you wanted to hear, right? <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Ya.:D What kind of bright, shiney toys? 'Fraid you'd ask that. :) BIG and small shiney toys :-) But I can safely say, nothing based upon 8-bitters other than the occasional keyboard controller, or video dongle. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> bummer :( But, they still do occasionally make a C64 now and then, I'm told. That's good news :) Is it true they sold 30,000 C-64s in China last year? I suppose so. I don't know where they're going, but China would be one guess. As would some of the newer Eastern block countries. I can't *imagine* a Chinese person beating on a C64, but... well, they don't have Chinese keyboards - they mostly use qwerty even in Japan :) For sure. There was some talk about doing an Arabic-type keyboard/editor nagging me when I was busy with the C65, but fortunately that went away! hard to fit 25,000 letters onto one keyboard even with (20) F-keys :D <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> That's a signal for the c65 Piece of cake. How big did you want them letters?? Arabic? maybe it was for air defense systems? ;D Don't laugh- it wasn't THAT long ago I got a call from SAC about getting a replacement video tube for an 8032. <- falling on floor (THUD) <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Maurice Randall has a question. yea, its what they call SCUDs when they run out of fuel :D Yeah- that just occured to me, too :-) <[Maurice] M.RANDALL2> Did the LCD-128 get lost when Commodore cleared out the warehouse? Tell us about old stuff like that one. The LCD machine was neat, but rather qwerky and not terribly compatible. <[Maurice] M.RANDALL2> What ever happened to it? I liked it for the hack it was, but must admit I was a'gin it. But ALL the old stuff is gone, 'cept for a few pieces in my horribly crowded office or tucked away in my basement here. <[Maurice] M.RANDALL2> Let me know when you have your rummage sale! Even lost my prototype C128. :-( <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Ah, The Bowen Museum? <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> :( The 'museum' ain't what it used to be. For sure. you mean they took it and sold it to Grapevine? <[Maurice] M.RANDALL2> Probably lots of stories there. I'm done. But- call it a clean slate. If anything, one's got to be an optimist. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Mats from Germany has a question. One man's museum is another man's pile of junk, yunno <[mats] M.MATTING> [A[B[C[AGreetings from Bil Herd to you... Hey, I hear Herd's gonna get *married*! Nearly blew ME away... <[mats] M.MATTING> He asked me to ask you a question, but I forgot it :( <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> LOL That's MY kind of question. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> They say the mind goes first, Mats.LOL <[mats] M.MATTING> About the C65: Do you know which was the last ROM version ever made? Uh huh- my bells went first. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> We are in listening mode. Type "/rai" for questions. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Wait till GEOS-TIM calls on you. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Indicate the end of your questioning with a GA (Go Ahead) When the C65 was canned, I spent another month wrapping things up, just in case. The last version is sitting in my machine only- something like 911204 or so. <[mats] M.MATTING> Hey, we recently got your (self-written, I think) demo programs and documentation. Will it be (legally) possible to send to others? But that version required the latest hardware, of course. I've been trying to get permission to "release" some stuff, but as yet have not gotten it. The problem is it was never reviewed or approved for release by the legal people, so... it's doubtful. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> :( A lot of GEnie users will be unhappy to hear that. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> We have quite a C65 following I suppose the legal department does not look at denying the approval as trying to shut the barn door after the horse escaped :D Still gonna work on it, but the higher-ups and legal folks <[mats] M.MATTING> But it works fine on o u r latest ROM version (not the US-one, looks like specifically done for CBM-Germany(?) have bigger things on their minds, for some reason :-) Uh, sorry- that last line was barely readable here- repeat it? I probably belched too hard. Pardon me as Im new to computers. But if they are selling 30,000 plus c64 machines <[mats] M.MATTING> That noisy line... The demo programs do work fine on our last ROM version (that one with the german keyboard) Message sent to Job 2 in europe why is ther no support statside re: c65 demos- it probably means you have an old set of demos! <[mats] M.MATTING> Thanks - I m done The latest set included checks for version numbers, etc. They also required a 1MB RAM expansion. re: 30k c64's: margin is so small, CBM probably made $30k on 'em, max. Was the "C-65" the "secret" computer that was going to be unveiled at that computer show in England in Sept 1990? Might explain just the PAL version? In other words- hardly worth it. thanks <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Are there anymore questions concerning the C65 <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> ....? I went to Germany in something like May '91 to show it to European managerss. That's the only "official" dog/pony show I know of. ALL the C65's had PAL chips in them. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> J. Brook has a question I just got here. What is the c65? The initial launch was to be in Europe, where the C64 sales were still hanging in there. No NTSC VIC-III was ever made. And are they currently on the market/ GA No, the C65 was never "released" Where did that 30k C64's sold figure come from? Annual report from Commodore showed 200,000 C64's sold last year... (sorry if I came in late... :) That was 30K in *China*, Doug. Okay. Thanks. :) ::ducking back into my hole:: <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Gunter has a question. What are the c 65 capabilities? So THAT's where they keep you... <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> We don't like it to get out, Fred Oh my. That would take a fair amount of typing! think Howie posted all the "specs" in Cat#2? My personally analogy was that the C65 was to the C64 as the C64 was to the VIC20. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> I didn'T realize they were that different (hope you got that- the echo here was horrendous!) <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> We did <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> I guess I better read Cat #2 (how about a conference call, next time ??? :-) <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> LOL This is. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Any more questions about the C65? I got the actual MANUAL right here :-) <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> There are a lot of folks that would like that <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Go a head Chris fred if i want to buy a c-64 in europ who would i contact as i have friend over ther looking for them Hmm, not sure- the sundry European sales areas have been (or are being) Speaking of "C-##" - what happened to the C-64gs - I was reading some game magazines from the UK and it appeared it was distributed there - a "game boy C-64"? What was it really? Just a C-64 without a keyboard that took 1meg ROMs? consolidated, I think. Depends where he is. Best thing is to simply ask a user group over there. CF, just have them pick up a 64'er magazine :) <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> mats may have an answer on where to get them ok thanks <[mats] M.MATTING> Chris, if you have a friend in Germany: 64s are still available in great mailorder stores overhere The C64GS was a modified C64 with no keybd & an expansion/cartridge slot facing upwards. mat what part of germany r u in It was a 2-day hack. <[mats] M.MATTING> I m calling from Munich, southern part The UK really wanted it, but despite recommendations otherwise, they got it. :) they ever sell any decent amount or was it a flop without the keyboard? Think it translated to $99 (in British pounds)? I guess it depends upon your point of view- in West Chester, it was a flop. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> We are in listening mode. Type "/rai" for questions. means it didnt sell 4 million then ;> Ahh, those were the days... what was the last figured on the amount of sold C-64s? 12 million? Geez- I don't know. I don't keep track of those things. I can't even keep my bells on, yunno? Fred, I recall seeing a quote from you a few months back saying that CBM estimated that there were still around 3 million 64's in use. Any idea where that figure came from? Well, if it came from me, it was in response to something I read. Sorry- don't recall. But, the number wouldn't seem too out of line, really. What was with those 1megabit ROMs I kept seeing "ads" for? where they for the C-64gs or just a marketing idea that never hit fruitation? Okay, thanks. lol - was probably a quote from marketing at the board meeting ;D Hmm, the GS used 512k I think- the 1M parts were just used in the You mean a 'dart board' meeting, JBEE? :) game carts, I believe- they held several games in each cart, bank-selectable. they sounded pretty cool - I tried to buy one but never could find one - know any of the game names? I think I remember seeing an ad for "one" in RUN but the company did not have any. I did 2 or 3 carts- nostalgic collectiions of Collossis Chess, Wiz-o-war, etc. ** <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Room is now in the talk mode. <[Maurice] M.RANDALL2> What participation have you been personally involved in with the CD-32 project? ** <[Jim] J.DEARDEN> was . Welcome Jim! <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Hi J Dearden ** <[Chuck] C.GRIFOR> was . seems like they could have been used for some nifty things like digi speach and game animation. ** is here. r any 128 still being made <[Jim] J.DEARDEN> Hi Tim, Fred, All hi jim speech ^ <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> We just went into an informal mode No C128's are being made- I think they "remanufactured" the last of 'em ** <[Jim/]>ug..] J.DEARDEN> was <[Jim] J.DEARDEN>. a year or two ago. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Go ahead Jim those were probably all the units Software Hutt was sellingng <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Jim has a question.... <[Jim/]>ug..] J.DEARDEN> Hi Fred, I've got 2 questions about the 65 (actually from Dug Rodger) 1) any major design flaws to watch for? <[Jim/]>ug..] J.DEARDEN> 2) what the part # for the expansion memory? We don't even have any C64 or 128 parts of any kind left, that I know of. yes, believe they were all sold to some big service company Commodore contacted for dealer sales somewhere down south (MO)? Sorry Jim- didn't get all that- gonna have to repeat it. Active users in ALL Rooms Job City Room Sta Mail-Address 1 Clarkston,MI 6 L [Your Host] GEOS-TIM 2 Natrona height,PA 6 N C128-QT.PIE 3 Wacko,TX 6 N THE.OUTLAW 4 Dresden, 6 N [mats] M.MATTING 5 Salem,MA 6 N C128.JBEE 6 Hamilton,OH 6 N D.WITMER2 7 Crown point,IN 6 N R.BOYLES2 8 West chester,PA 6 N FREDBOWEN 9 Bx,NY 6 N C.EFTHIMIOU 10 Pikesville,MD 6 N GUNTER 11 Shelton,WA 6 N [powerusermag] T.GOSSER1 12 Toronto,ON 6 N [Jim/]>ug..] J.DEARDEN 13 Charlotte,MI 6 N [Maurice] M.RANDALL2 14 Jamesburg,NJ 6 N R.NEAZER 15 East longmeado,MA 6 N CMD-DOUG 17 Milford,MI 6 N [Chuck] C.GRIFOR <[Jim/]>ug..] J.DEARDEN> Hi Fred, are ther any major design flaws in the 65 to watch out for? In the version you probably have, yes- lots! Otherwise we could have released the sucker a whole year earlier! <[Jim/]>ug..] J.DEARDEN> Other than the o.s. are there any design flaws with the hardware? That's mostly what I'm talking about, silly. They would have shipped it with any old software in it :-) But what are they? That's like asking me to remember all the bad things that happened to me on vacation 2 years ago. its like being a mother too - you try to only remember the good thing about your children :D <[Chuck] C.GRIFOR> Mr Bowen Sir? <[Jim/]>ug..] J.DEARDEN> ..any *Serious* desigin flawz, the kind that would have killed production. Say like "can't get 1280 rez"?? There were sundry palette problems, sprite glitches, DOS controller bugs, lots of things like that. The chips were less than prototypes, to boot. We went through tons of them, as they died. <[Chuck] C.GRIFOR> Mr Bowen could you possiblty answer an A***a question? The various consultants I had always had problems- it was a real pain. <[Jim/]>ug..] J.DEARDEN> ..bugz don't count. Something like a cracked frame after 5 bumpz, would! is the C-65 disk drive capable of reading Amiga disks, I know that must have been one of the plans and benefits of having the C-65 being able to display IFF resolution files? No Amiga disks, but PC disks, yes. There's even a special autoboot routine which looked for a PC boot sector. c00l neat^^ Cool! The main chip guy wanted originally a multitasking CP/M type OS for the C65 <[mats] M.MATTING> What about the external drive and RAM expansion? Was it ever produced? <[Jim/]>ug..] J.DEARDEN> did you ever finish off the LOADIFF routine? so it might have been possible to package and IBM game and C-64 game on the same disk! Sure- I have several :-) The main idea behind the PC boot sector was to allow this guy to boot his <[Jim/]>ug..] J.DEARDEN> Was the memory expansion the same as for the Amiga 600? own OS over top of the C^% ROMs. like OS9 on the Tandy? The C65 RAM exp. was a totally unique beast. It had to allow special VIC accesses, so that VIC screens/bitplanes could be out in expansion memory. Also, to allow the DMA blitter access to exp. mem. <[Jim/]>ug..] J.DEARDEN> rats..... :-( any chance that Grapevine got some along with the 65's? That was something I insisted upon. <[Jim/]>ug..] J.DEARDEN> gee, if only they had listened to you, and put the thing out!!!! uFyzF"= q;8J=[Ab3 )Xwl Wow- is my screen scrambled or what? Can't read a thing at the moment! DW had a bit of line noise is all ur clear here so expansion memory was treated like "chip" memory Err... was that a UUENCODED program, or what? :) <[powerusermag] T.GOSSER1> It was interesting Fred, but I gotta go. Nite all! :) giggle! <[Chuck] C.GRIFOR> Just after your last send Night T.Gosser! <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Night T. Gosser night Tom Sorta- certain banks could be accessed by VIC/DMAgic, all could be accessed by the CPU. was the VICiii sort of like a co-processor or did it function basically the same as the C-64 VIC and was "dumb" <[mats] M.MATTING> Between the demo programs there was a picture of a kind of workbench. Was it ever released to more than that picture? The VIC-II wasn't dumb- VIC essentially runs the show. Heh, the workbench pic I captured off the Amiga. I did want to "animate it, but never did. <[mats] M.MATTING> :) Hey, so the DPaint piccy too :) <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Speaking of Amiga, there is an Amiga question. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Chuck........ <[Chuck] C.GRIFOR> Fred I'm having a REAL problem with an A590 Bummer. Don't know if I can help you with that.. <[Chuck] C.GRIFOR> It's blowing its little fuses right and left. is an A590 a hard drive? Hello everyone..how are we all doing tonight?? <[Chuck] C.GRIFOR> Yup Well, that certainly sounds like a power problem or serious short somewhere. Hi Eddie! <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Hi E.B ** <[Eddie] E.BOURDON1> was . <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Welcome to the Fred Bowen Conference !!! Hardly a conference- more like a word scramble! so at this point in time there is no future for the c=64,c=65,128 at all I think DW gets the prize for Line Noise tonight u aintkidding I have seen the future, and it was a year or two ago :-) <[Jim/]>ug..] J.DEARDEN> I don't hear any noise? <[Maurice] M.RANDALL2> Commodore has already created the future. The 64's are already here. We just gotta use em. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Ditto <[Chuck] C.GRIFOR> Night all lol <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Night Chuck ** <[Chuck] C.GRIFOR> has left. G'night Chuck! ;D night chuck well, I would not say any future as in "new" hardware - can buy 386sx clones from Radio Shack for $400 doesnt mean we cant enjoy using them :) ibm yuck :< That's the whole point, JBEE. <[Maurice] M.RANDALL2> Commodore has to make money. It would be worse to see Commodore fall, then to just quit building 64s, right? is it snowing yet? not here NY <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Not here in Michigan Yes, I'd say it would be worse to fail than to stop making c64s. <[Jim/]>ug..] J.DEARDEN> ..not in Toronto either (yet, sob) <[Maurice] M.RANDALL2> We are supposed to get 5-8 inches tomorrow, just when it melted. i agree with u cbm needs to make a dollar Really big dollars. they made 386 million of them last year - they just confused the minus sign with the plus sign again but for me the 128 does everthing i need <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Plus where would you get such a fraternity of users? Hmm, but if I gave you a 4000 with DCTV, Studio16, and a laser printer? and ever two years an upgrade <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Why thanks Fred. <[Jim/]>ug..] J.DEARDEN> Fred do you remember off-hand what the part number for the 65 ram exp. was? <[Maurice] M.RANDALL2> Are you just handing these out, Fred? <[Maurice] M.RANDALL2> Get your door prize tickets. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> This was a conference to come to.LOL fred still would just sit on my desk as a dust collector Well, I'm still trying to figure out a way to keep my Amiga from gathering dust. The part numbver???? The REU was never given one that I recall. too many bells and whisles for me <[Maurice] M.RANDALL2> I could use the laser printer. They work nice with GEOS. ^^^^^^ Hey- I need a new set of bells... <[mats] M.MATTING> Hey, I[A[Dse my 128 Actually, I let my daughter use my Amiga for school work... but she knows not to touch my 128. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Fred, I'm afraid you have a lot of diehards here.: with Apple going with the Power PC chip - will the next Amiga be a 68050 (if there is such an animal) or some other RISC chip? BTW - saw a nice Bablyon 5 write about the Amiga FX on the show. <--will send you a new set of bells in exchange for that laser printer <[mats] M.MATTING> Noisy line again.. Doesnt matter <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> The Amiga does do great Video Sorry QT, I sold my bells for a down paymt on a printer. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> And if I were going form the 64/128 world that is most likely what I would get Aww, shucks! Were they BIG bells? <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> That's where those bells went Yep! hehehe <[Maurice] M.RANDALL2> Wanna sell some CD-32s Fred? Put the necessary software on a CD and an interface cable, and hook it to a 64. Clean clappers? LOL!!!! Yes indeed! LOL ** <[clap on] C128.JBEE> was . ** <[clap off] C128.JBEE> was <[clap on] C128.JBEE>. ** was <[clap off] C128.JBEE>. Giggle <[Eddie] E.BOURDON1> ::clap clap:: hey, works just like on TV! <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> That would be interesting to hook the computer up to a clapper Quit playin' with yer bells in public, hey? <[Jim/]>ug..] J.DEARDEN> Eddie, Sanpshot v6 is coming along nicely! hi lou Hi All! <[Eddie] E.BOURDON1> Good to hear it, Jim. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> I heard that the Snapshot v6 was coming <[Eddie] E.BOURDON1> What are some of the features gonna be? Fred, got a PERSONAL questions - out of all the 8 bit devices/chips - what part was it that you designed that you took pride in the most as an engineer? <[Jim/]>ug..] J.DEARDEN> [38.4k bps]! Well folks, I'm going to wring the dog's bells, then get mine to bed. LOL! <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> Thanks for Coming Fred. LOL Fred, thank you so much for joining us tonight! <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> It was a very informative evening yes thanks fred Thank, Tom. It was good for me. <[mats] M.MATTING> Thank you too thank you for coming Fred :) <[Jim/]>ug..] J.DEARDEN> Thanks Fred! (Ernie will call you tommorrow!) Thanks for all the Info ! :> It's been a pleasure! Thanks for our Commies, Fred! <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> We look forward to seeing you in the Cyber halls of GEnie Thanks Fred The bells will be in the mail frozen^^ You're all too kind. I think I'll be hiding under my desk for a spell. <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> You will be able to hear your mail come <[Your Host] GEOS-TIM> LOL.. LOL, Tim! ** has left. ** End of Conference ** ===========================================================================