The following C64/128 RoundTable BB Messages have been archived by H.HERMAN8 (Howie). ---------------------------------------------------------- ************ Topic 4 Sat Aug 28, 1993 G.HILL15 (Forwarded) Sub: 1581 Disk Drive Questions and info about the Commodore 1581 disk drive. 109 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 1 Sat Aug 28, 1993 G.HILL15 (Forwarded) I have an interesting, and probably hopeless, problem. I was using my 1581 awhile back and had my Novaterm disk in the drive. Later, I swapped disks and put in a disk that I saved lots of text files on. Well later, after getting offline, I went to check my disk with the text files and it NOW had the directory of the Novaterm disk on it. Apparently, the drive never recognized when I swapped disk and wrote the Novaterm directory right onto my text file disk the next time I did a save of a text file. I have used a sector editor to look around the disk and all my text files are still there. Only the directory track is written over. Is there ANY way to make the disk usable again so that I can recover the text files on it? The only way I can think of is to use a sector editor and have to scan 3000+ blocks to trace links. PLEASE tell me there is an easier way? George ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 3 Sun Aug 29, 1993 R.KNOP1 [Rob Knop] (Forwarded) Does this happen consistently with all disks? Or did it just happen with the pair of disks? If the latter, do the two disks have the same ID? You probably know what that is, but just in case, the ID is the "other" thing you specify when formatting the disk besides the name. On the 64 open15,8,15,"n0:diskname,id":close15 ^^ this is the ID On the 128: header"diskanme",iid ^^ this is the ID When listing the directory, you see the ID at the top to the right of the disk name. Ideally, each of your 3.5" disks should have a unique ID, since this is how the disk drive decides if a new disk has been inserted into the drive. If you have two disks with the same ID, if you swap from one to the other, it is possible that the disk drive will not think that a swap has occurred, and all sorts of bad things could in principle happen. I don't know that this is your problem, but I believe that it is possible. -Rob ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 5 Sun Aug 29, 1993 C128.JBEE (Forwarded) I believe the ID for 1581s is purely cosmetic and the drive could care less :) Also, a lot of fast formatters use the same ID for every 1541 disk and only cosmetically add the ID to the disk. So, sometimes it is better to use the long format on 1541s. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 6 Sun Aug 29, 1993 G.HILL15 (Forwarded) Rob, This has happened to me more than once. But it does not happen all the time. the other disks it happened too were no big deal. But that last one was pretty important. I had known about the problem and had gotten into the habit of actually LOOKING at the directory everytime I put a disk in. But of course, that ONE time, I didn't and well..... What is scarey is that I took the drive to a Commodore dealer down here. He claims there is nothing wrong with the drive. I showed him the screwed up directories to PROVE it. I was also having problems with the directory tracks becoming corrupted, not just overwritten. On the corrupted ones, I could not even reformat those disks! Anyhow, supposedly the corruption problem was fixed. But he told me there was no problem with it not recognizing when a new disk was put in. I am using the drive right now VERY cautiously. I love the extra storage but all that room does me no good if the disks are gonna get wiped every once in awhile. I guess I can pretty much write off that text disk huh? George ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 7 Mon Aug 30, 1993 R.KNOP1 [Rob Knop] (Forwarded) If the directory has been munged up, there is a good chance that you will have to kiss off the disk. Do you have a sector editor? If so, take a look at the various sectors on track 40 ($28). If any of the original directory seems to be there, it may be possible to salvage some of the disk. (Ask, if this is the case, and I can go into more detail.) If not, with a LOT of grunt work you might be able salvage the text files disk, but this would have to be a VERY IMPORTANT disk before you would want to launch into this. It would involve using a sector editor to search throught the sectors on the disk to find the sectors that have the file you are interested in, and manually editing the directory track to put in entries for these files. I've never done such a thing, but it would be very painful, I imagine (I do have a friend who nearly lost a long paper back in high school to disk speeze on his Apple, and spent the night doing a similar operation to reconstruct the disk. I don't know what the details were, though, because I don't know the structure of apple disks.) Two further comments: one, have you noticed any correlation between munged disks and software used? Some older sotware might assume that any disk attached is a 1541, and do some direct access to the disk which will not work with a 1581. Second, I don't know if this problem can result, but there is a disk drive controller chip of which there are two versions in 1581's out there. Most 1581's have the WD1772 chip, whereas some of the very earliest ones had a WD1771 chip. (I think the numbers are 1771, 1772- can somebody verify this for me?) I believe there are programs out there that will diagnose your 1581 and tell you if you have the 1771 or 1772 chip. I have heard that if you have the 1771 you "should" upgrade to the 1772, but am not sure in detail what problems can result- can somebody else comment on this? -Rob ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 8 Mon Aug 30, 1993 C128.JBEE (Forwarded) This sounds exactly like the problem some earlier 1581s had because of defective WD1770 (vs WD1772) chips and the drives also needed to have the pin (#10?) properly grounded etc etc If you have a WD1772 in there, it is possible the complete repair was not completed with the grounding of that pin on the chip, which has to been done (I believe) even if you replace the older defective chip. Corrupted directories where the result of this not being done. I know I returned two 1581s to Software Hut for this reason. First I got two WD1770s, then I got them returned without the WHOLE proper repair being performed on it according to how Tech Topics says it SHOULD be done. There is an archived text on this, along with a test program, in the libraries. I believe the file name is "1581.dia" or something close to that. What you can do to salvage the disk is copy all 80 tracks except #40 (the directory track) to another 1581 formatted with the same ID. Then find which directory sector is corrupted (usually the bam) and copy each sector from one disk to another. I usually read the corrupted disk, removed the bad disk, put in the good one, send the "I" command, and then wrote the sector in memory to the disk. You will lose the first 8 files if you lost the bam. You can trace the sectors from the remaining directory blocks and figure out where the first eight files in the directory would start. The first file is always saved at T/S #/# on a new disk, so start from the first file, find the links, and work forwards towards the higher file directory numbers. A lot of work, but if the files are valuable and can't be replaced, you CAN recover the disk with some hard detective work. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 9 Mon Aug 30, 1993 B.GANN1 (Forwarded) My 1581 does this too... how do you find out if you have the grounding done? I do have the 1772 chip. Tips I was given: Always do an initialize when swapping disks. Just llooking at the directory is not enough. And keep more than 500 blocks free on the disk. Yes, you will have to use a sector editor as mentioned to fix this disk. Brenda ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 11 Mon Aug 30, 1993 CBM-MARK (Forwarded) I've also got one of those Software Hut 1581's. First one I recieved worked for 2 days then guit doing anything :/ That one went back. The one I have now has been working great, or so I thought. It does have the 1772 controler but as for pin 10 being grounded, I don't know. Now I think I'ld better check since every once in a while when I get close to filling up a disk the directory gets messed up. Actually I didn't make the connection between a nearly full disk and corrupted directory until reading this topic. I had just sorta assummed my son was doing something to mess them up. Only happened a few times which coincidently happened to be shortly after my son was using the computer. He likes to re-arrange everything on the desk to his liking :> I7m off to find that file JBEE, thanks! ~~Mark~~ ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 12 Wed Sep 01, 1993 H.HERMAN1 (Forwarded) Mark, There is a third ingredient with the 1770/1772 fix: closing the jumper at J? (I *think* it might be J1). That file should describe this too. All the 1581's here which were original 1770 version 1581's and had the three fixes, and have never given me a moment of grief. Because of all the "@file" saves, most of the stuff has to be highly fragmented, and it does not seem to matter one bit. BTW, the jumper fix might refer to using a resistor. According to Fred that is not necessary, and a piece of wire, which is what I used, will do fine. Howie ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 13 Wed Sep 01, 1993 CBM-MARK (Forwarded) Howie, I ran a program I found in the libs that tells me which controler I have and if J1 (you were right ;) is closed or not. Found I have the 1772 with J1 closed. Couldn't find any text file describing anything about grounding pi9n 10 though. Or is that by chance what the J1 jumper does? ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 14 Thu Sep 02, 1993 H.HERMAN1 (Forwarded) Mark, If you tested positive for the 1772 and J1, then its pretty certain that the grounding from pin 10(?) is also present. As I understand it, only a first batch of production 1581's got released without the proper grounding. And all of them had the 1770. Howie ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 15 Thu Sep 02, 1993 RANDOM-MAG (Forwarded) These 1581s sure do like to eat up disks. I have two 1581 drives sitting right here, and in the past I have encounttered endless errors due not to the same disk ID and writing the wrong directory, but instead to a common problem where the 1581 simply loses the directory track. This has happened in GEOS, BASIC, selecting protocols in Novaterm, and countless other ways. In fact, we have received a good number of questions regarding this problem as well as some solutions. One thing that has been noticed is that if the directory was destroyed in BASIC, and the disk has been selected as a "GEOS" disk previously in its life, sometimes if you boot GEOS and select the disk, GEOS will be able to read it fine (when you have this error, in most cases there's never any damage to the data, its just your directory track.), and if you perform any operation such as moving files so GEOS will write to the disk, when you drop to BASIC the directory will be fixed. Since GEOS itself likes to kill the disks, if you use gateWay you'll find that it is able to avoid the error most of the time, as opposed to deskTop, which simply gives up and lets the disk die. Also, to see how bad off you are, boot up Maverick, and run the file copy program. If it can read the directory when you hit the function keys, but not when you try to copy files, if you play around with it a bit simply by viewing directories and performing commands, you may bring your disk back. If not, copying a new track 40 as advised in a previous post will fix the problem if necessary. In all cases, thtough, you should rejoice and then remind yourself to copy all files to new disks with a standard file copier; don't perform a full disk copy, since if you use a powerful copier such as Maverick, it will simply copy the problem to the new disk. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 16 Sat Sep 04, 1993 M.COLWELL1 [MattMan] at 01:29 EDT I have a 1581 that I bought used from a BBS operator. He used to use it on his Commodore BBS. I've had it for 2 years now, with NO problems at all. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 17 Sat Sep 04, 1993 G.HILL15 at 21:50 EDT What is the name of this program in the library that will tell what chip I have? ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 18 Sun Sep 05, 1993 CBM-ED [e.g.bell] at 10:58 EDT As usual, I am jumping in here real late, but I'm sure I have something to add... hehehe George: GH> I have used a sector editor to look around the disk and all my GH> text files are still there. Only the directory track is GH> written over. Is there ANY way to make the disk usable again GH> so that I can recover the text files on it? Do a search in our libraries for a file called FIX 1581. If any program will recover your disk, this one will. Also, depending on the error, I sometimes find that if I spin the disk manually with a pen in the hub a few times, it will read. This only works for certain errors though. GH> The only way I can think of is to use a sector editor and have GH> to scan 3000+ blocks to trace links. PLEASE tell me there is GH> an easier way? I wrote a little hack called FIND THE SOB (named after a catastrophic loss) that goes through the disk and finds the BASIC files on the whole disk. It does this via direct reads of each sector on the disk, and does work even when the directory is grunged, at least in the cases I used it for. If you can do this type of programming, you might do the same, or I can upload my prog for modification. I also did one to find ARC files too. However, this will not discern that a file has been overwritten, so a sector editor is still needed, but the leg work is done for you, and the report is to printer so you can pretty much leave and come back when it is finished. If I were doing it again, I would consider trying the burst load routines on the demo disk to read in a whole track at a time, tho a bad sector will stifle that. GH> On the corrupted ones, I could not even reformat those disks! GH> Anyhow, supposedly the corruption problem was fixed. But he GH> told me there was no problem with it not recognizing when a GH> new disk was put in. I am using the drive right now VERY GH> cautiously. I love the extra storage but all that room does GH> me no good if the disks are gonna get wiped every once in GH> awhile. Again, try the program and technique I mentioned above... and as for wiping disks out... welcome to the 1581. I have the new 1772 controller and still get a disk wiped out occasionally... some of which I can recover and some which I can't. O, and another good technique with the 1581 is frequent backups, which I also do. ;) Thank goodness this is NOT duplicated in the RamLink 1581 partitions!!!!! RK> If not, with a LOT of grunt work you might be able salvage the RK> text files disk, but this would have to be a VERY IMPORTANT RK> disk before you would want to launch into this. It would RK> involve using a sector editor to search throught the sectors RK> on the disk to find the sectors that have the file you are RK> interested in, and manually editing the directory track to put RK> in entries for these files. I've never done such a thing, but RK> it would be very painful, I imagine What you can do that is easier (I have done it the way you suggest and it is painful) is to use a program that finds the start sector and then write a small copier that reads a sector and writes it to a file on a good disk. A word pro that saves in prg format would be a breeze to do this with. In SEQ format a bit harder unless you know the first character or two, but it can be made easier than it seems at first glance. I have done it often enough to know, which is why I have called the 1581 a little snake going back to the year it was released. You can find those gripes in our libs... heheh HH> All the 1581's here which were original 1770 version 1581's and HH> had the three fixes, and have never given me a moment of HH> grief. Because of all the "@file" saves, most of the stuff HH> has to be highly fragmented, and it does not seem to matter HH> one bit. HH> BTW, the jumper fix might refer to using a resistor. HH> According to Fred that is not necessary, and a piece of wire, HH> which is what I used, will do fine. Discussions I've seen regarding the controller chips basically ended with 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. As someone said, CBM got a bad shipment of those 1770 controllers, and only those needed replaced. If your 1581 works with what it has, the advice was to leave it be. As for the J1 jumper, I believe the original suggestion was to ground it with a 47ohm resistor, but as Howie said, many found other things worked as well. Bottom line on this was that it was supposed to adjust the steper motor speed or something, and not critical if not done. There was also a bad solder joint on U10 I believe, which resulted in spurious 'device not present' errors. I do have the 1772 controller in my 1581s tho I don't think the ground is soldered, so JBEE may be correct about this causing the problem. I just repeated what I heard, not my own experience here. I use my 1581s with great caution and back up regularly and have still gotten burned frequently. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 19 Sun Sep 05, 1993 F.OGLE [Color BBS] at 16:00 EDT As a BBS operator using a large system, with my primary b/u drives 1581's, my experience has taught me that every time you swap a disk, send an "i0" command to the drive. It is a pain sometimes, but if the files are worth keeping, this will prolly save you some heartache. The 1581 is also notorious for corrupting directories when appending seq files. Fred. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 20 Mon Sep 06, 1993 M.COLWELL1 [MattMan] at 14:46 EDT Another way to "repair" disks is with the Maverick. First, make a backup of the trashed disk. then run the dir recovery program from the upgrades and goodies menu. select the corect drive and place the BACKUP into the drive. It will scan the disk, and link files back together. The only problem is that you have to rename all the files, the maverick names them f1, f2, etc. Another bad point it that it wont work on trashed GEOS disks. Does anyone know of a program that will recovery trashed GEOS disks? ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 21 Mon Sep 06, 1993 CBM-ED [e.g.bell] at 22:33 EDT I have often wondered just what is so different about the directory of a GEOS disk. I know the file stuff is different, but isn't the directory the same? Couldn't a sector editor be used also with a GEOS disk to restore the directory entries, or do the other particulars get messed up also? ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 22 Tue Sep 07, 1993 R.KNOP1 [Rob Knop] at 01:24 EDT The directory on GEOS is different in two respects. First, the individual directory entries are different. The various "unused" or "reserved" bytes in the standard C= directory entry are used for various GEOS info, like GEOS file type, GEOS file structure (VLIR vs. SEQUENTIAL), and the date and the time of the file (the latter being stored in the same bytes and format as the RAMLink date and time stamp). The other difference is the off-page directory block. Those files you drag off of the deskTop to the edge of the page are stored in a special directory block. Offhand I don't know if this directory block is stored on the same track as the rest of the directory, or somewhere random on the disk. It is pointed to by a word in the BAM or directory header, and not linked to anything. (This block will be deallocated, along with all the file header blocks and the bulk of any VLIR file, if you do a standard commodore validate on a GEOS disk.) As to the whole reason for the question, can you use a sector editor to restore a GEOS disk, you should be able to. The only thing to be aware of is that you must restore the "extra" information that GEOS needs along with the "normal" directory stuff. Before Jim Collette released his trojan killer, I in fact used to use diskMon128 to restore a saved copy of my first directory sector after the trojan horse would zero it. -Rob ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 23 Wed Sep 08, 1993 M.COLWELL1 [MattMan] at 22:41 EDT What did the trojan horse do? I could never figure that out, and haven't noticed any problems with GEOS. I'll check out some GEOS disks... I've got a GEOS sector editor that I've always wanted to try out... MattMan ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 24 Sat Sep 11, 1993 R.PATERNOST2 [Ray] at 01:45 EDT The Geos Trojan Horse struck on the boot disk if the program 1) determined that it was a copy and not an original Geos boot disk, and 2) if you tried to perform an operation that it thought you weren't supposed to do (something like scratching files, for example). It then not only erased the first three files (your boot files), but it also wiped the part of track 18, sector 1 where the directory information for each was stored. This way, the user could not simply go back with a sector editor or an unscratch program and recover the files. Fortunately, the 'Trojan Killer' program does exactly that- it wipes the part of the code that does this. Pity it only works on one drive.... ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 25 Sun Oct 24, 1993 R.CONTARINO at 22:45 EDT I just bought a 1581. Is does not seem to work with my 'Fast Load' cart. Also can anyone help me with my ISEPIC v1.1. I lost the manual and have not used it in years. I can't 'break' a program without getting an 'insufficient memory' error message. I seem to remeber entering a number in the 'edit' section when you reach the 'x' to abort part. can anyone help me with this number, I lost my manual. Also its been a long time since I used my 64 and now I heard about some new carts like IISEPIC. Ones like super snapshot and pro dos and some chip deal. which one of these is the best. I've hear super snapshot is great. what is the newest version and where do i get these carts from! please help! Thanxs, Rick ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 26 Sun Oct 24, 1993 CMD-DOUG at 23:44 EDT Fast Load is only for 1541 drives. No big suprise it doesn't work the 1581. Consider JiffyDOS. As for capture cartridges, two stand out. Super Snapshot v5 and Action Replay Mk VI. Super Snapshot tends to have better utilities and is more commonly used, but Action Replay appears to have a better capture scheme from the testing I've done. ISEPIC was a pretty good cartridge, but it's rather dated now. I don't know if I'll be able to find my docs on it, haven't used mine in years. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 27 Mon Oct 25, 1993 C128.JBEE at 01:12 EDT Going by the .INFO article, ISEPIC also uses a companion disk that loads a program before you try to capture another program. Have you forgotten to use the disk program before loading and booting another program? Overseas the Action Replay cartridge is considered tops for games and such. It is an outstanding cartridge and also comes with some nice utilities. Though SSV5 has its strong points too. GULLIBLE wrote a program for the SS5 that lets you use the SS5 and a REU together for psuedo multitasking. That program is in the C-64/128 RT library. I have never used a Super Snapshot cartridge, so I can't really comment on it except by saying I do not think either one will disappoint you :) ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 28 Tue Oct 26, 1993 R.CONTARINO at 22:20 EDT hi, its me again. ok it looks like super snap 5 is the one. but where do you get it? as for isepic, i am using the companion disk but you can't "edit" the disk without freeing up some memory which is why I need the number that is in the manual that does this. so once againg, looking for those folks out their with an old copy of isepic that have their manual, what is the number or command you put in at the part of the "edit" command where it say " 'x' to abort " once again, thanks for all the help from everyone. I really appreciate it! Rick.. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 29 Wed Oct 27, 1993 C128.JBEE at 01:33 EDT You can get SS from S.S.I. Computers. Sorry, I do not have a number, maybe someone with their catalog can post their 1-800 number for you. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 30 Wed Oct 27, 1993 THE.OUTLAW at 18:41 EDT SSI phone numbers: 800-356-1179 Tech Support 206-695-9648 24hr Fax Line 206-695-0059 ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 31 Sun Nov 07, 1993 D.TUOMI [Doctor] at 16:12 EST Personally, I would highly recomend the Action Replay cartridge. I've used mine for about 4 years now and it's superb. I'll have to admit, in reality I wish someone would combine the best features of both the SS cartridge and the AR MKV cartridge, but for the work I was doing (which was combining M/L, BASIC, graphic screens, and music into one file I found the Action Replay gave the tightest files which were easiest to deal with. Doc. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 32 Tue Nov 16, 1993 DO.RAE.MI at 18:54 EST I have the Icepik cartridge, which means, somewhere in my messy den of computing, I have the instruction book. It will just take some time to find it. Will post when I do. Ted ::Once more into the Rat's Nest:: ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 33 Tue Nov 16, 1993 DO.RAE.MI at 19:26 EST ::peers into manual of software Cartridge that never quite worked for self:: You just got the Insufficient Free Memory Error which means the s/w can't find the right kind of memory in the right places & right size chunks. Select edit from the menu. When you see the flashing cursor at screen top type the following: 400,700 hit return key. type the following: q hit return key. this is a general repair which may or may not work. Once you pop out at the isepic menu, try breaking the program again. There you are. Good luck. Ted ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 34 Wed Dec 29, 1993 J.JONES30 [Jim L.] at 01:25 EST Hi all, I don't know if anyone still reads this topic, but I would sure like to find out some information on places that still sell the 1581... or perhaps if someone is looking to sell their 1581 at a reasonable price.... I know this isnt the buy and sell category but I figured I would put a message about such here.... Am also interested in 1571's also.... Thanks alot all... Jim J. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 35 Wed Dec 29, 1993 J.JONES30 [Jim L.] at 01:26 EST P.S. if anyone with any info could email it to me (J.JONES30) I would greatly appreciate such... Thanks again! ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 36 Wed Dec 29, 1993 C128.JBEE at 01:35 EST Have you tried the Software Hutt? Personally, I think the FD-2000 or FD-4000 is a better buy, especially for a person with a one disk system. Unless you are buying a used one 1581 for $50-$70. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 37 Wed Dec 29, 1993 L.SCHONDER [Lou] at 21:11 EST Heck, at $50-70 I'll buy one! ...and I don't even NEED one!!!! ;) ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 38 Fri Jan 07, 1994 C.EFTHIMIOU [brat] at 20:34 EST Hello name here is chris. I just got the 1581 used. I am haveing a problem with the 1581. I will try and explain. First I have a 128D with a built in 1571 disk drive. A external 1571, and a 1581, and a star-nx 1000c printer. If I have the 128D on and none of the external drives or printer on and I try and either load a prg or do a directory I get garbage on the screen. If I turn on any of the external hardware everthing clears up. The external 1571 is device 9 and the 1581 is device 10. If anybody has any ideas u can either e-mail me or leave message here for others to learn from too. Thanks for read- ing this. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 39 Sat Jan 08, 1994 CMD-DOUG at 00:12 EST You should not have devices attached to the serial bus turned off. This causes 'bus loading', which in turn can cause garbled data on the bus and may also cause the bus to 'lock up' if the loading is bad enough. The more devices you have on the bus, the further the bus is loaded. Devices that are turned off load the bus even more than devices that are powered. So this situation can also occur just from having too many devices attached, though having some turned off will cause it to happen with fewer devices. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 40 Sat Jan 08, 1994 C128.JBEE at 05:00 EST A workable solution might be to unplug the serial cables going to the off devices until you need to use them. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 41 Mon Jan 10, 1994 P.KELLER5 at 00:12 EST I used to have the same problem on having the 2 external drives & the printer turned off. I keep them all on. But on some programs, mostly 64 programs, I have to unplug the serial cable from the drive to my printer. I have a Seikosha SP-180VC printer, and it's wierd that it happens. One of the programs that won't load without the printer cable attached is Maverick. On the places that still have 1581's, I think Tech Star in Kent, WA have some, but they are asking a pretty price ($149.00, in their ad in dieHard). Their phone number is (206) 251-9040, 10-6 Monday thru Friday 11-5 Saturday. I see that Grapevine has it listed for $94.50, their number is 1-800-292-7445 (order line only). ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 42 Thu Jan 27, 1994 B.CHADWICK at 23:52 EST Is there any way to reconstruct a corrupted and un-readable directory on a 1581? Most or all of the files are presumable still on the few disks I have had this happen to. I have heard of a feature of "Maverick" (version 4 or 5 I think) that can rebuild a directory. Will it work on the 1581 and do what I need done (rebuild a directory from tracing files on a disk)? If so, where is Maverick available now? If not, is there other software that will re-construct directories from files on disks? Any help on this would be much appreciated. I have many files on these disks that I would like to save. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 43 Fri Jan 28, 1994 CBM-ED [e.g.bell] at 08:28 EST BC> Is there any way to reconstruct a corrupted and un-readable BC> directory on a 1581? Most or all of the files are presumable BC> still on the few disks It is possible, depending on the extent of the damage to the disk, your abilities, and if the files are actually still intact. I don't know if Maverick will do what you want, but I know any sector editor can get you through the job, or in the worst case, a block by block copy. Before you do any of that though, what is the error you are receiving? THere are a couple firstline fixes you should try if it is something on the directory track (40) that is sending an error 23 or something like that. First, try spinning the disk in the plastic by using your finger or a pen in the metal hub on the back of the disk. Then try to re-read the disk. If that does not work (try it a couple of times) get the file called FIX 1581 from the libraries (don't know the number) and run it, specifying track 40 sector 0. (This assumes your problem is the e one common to the 1581). Try this at least twice if the 1st attempt does not work. If none of this works, if Maverick does not do the job, you will have to copy each sector to a new disk and recreate the directory... ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 44 Fri Jan 28, 1994 C128.JBEE at 09:24 EST Here is how I have fixed disks that could not be fixed any other way. I formatted another 1581 with the same ID. Then I nibbled every track to the disk except for the directory track (18 on a 1541/71 - 40 on a 1581). With a sector editor I stepped through every directory track until I got a read error (example 40,0 40,1 40,2 40,3 etc). I noted the bad directory sectors (usually only the Bam at 40,0 is nuked). Then I nibbled the good directory sectors to the disk and allocated the whole BAM (think you have to write 255 to each byte at 40,0 - been a while since i did this). Usually, you will lose the first 8 files that had their directory pointers at 40,1. So, if needed, skip over this sector or any other bad sectors and link all the good sectors together. Then validate the disk. Then file copy all the files that remain to a good disk. If the disk is of vital importance, you can make a little graph chart and walk through the Track and Sectors of the found files and mark off all the validated sectors. This leaves the unvalidated sectors where information might be. Going by the unused sectors, start at 1,0 or the lowest available T/S and follow the file links. Note their positions on your chart. Now go to 40,1, make a directory entry, and point the link to that files (t/s) you just traced. Now load and check that file. If it is good, file copy it to another disk. Mark off all its sectors. Take the next sector following the previous file's last t/s and assume that is where the second file started. Trace that and just keep doing this routine until you have accounted for every T/S. Will take awhile, but as long as only 40,0 or 40,1 are corrupted, you can save the whole disk with some detective work. What makes this somewhat bearable on the 1581 is that the 1581 writes the T/S one after another without an interleaf for files, unlike the 1571. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 45 Sun Jan 30, 1994 R.ROSENLOF [Wizardry] at 03:54 EST Maverick's Directory Repair will only work on a 1541, or a 1571 in '41 mode... And besides that, the program will *not* work miracles! It just finds every track and sector pointer that are common to one "link" and enters it into a new directory as "PGM 1", "PGM 2", etc... Then YOU have to go through and figure out what they really are. If your disk contains lots of little ML, font, or sprite data files, this could get rather extensive. The method JBEE outlined is far faster, and much more practical. But in the end, both methods require you to have a fair amount of knowledge of how the DOS stores information on the diskette. Your best weapon is a 1581 drive manual. Good luck! Ron :) ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 46 Sun Jan 30, 1994 F.OGLE [Color BBS] at 12:24 EST That reminds me of the days when we were developing Color 64 strictly on 1581's ... It seemed that no matter how careful we were, we had problem after problem ... It is fair to say that the 1581 can be a tad bit flaky at times, especially when you APPEND files on it. The rule of thumb is ALWAYS to make B/U copies of any 1581 format disk that's important to you. Take it from two dudes who have spent an entire weekend RECOVERING much of our entire work to date. Good Luck :) ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 47 Thu Feb 03, 1994 R.KIRK7 [Dick] (Forwarded) I recently purchased two 1581 drives both of which indicate WD1770 chips with J1 open by the 1581 Checker program. Both drives appear to work Ok and have previously been worked on a BBS without any problem. Is there any test I can run which will demonstrate the supposed problem with these chips? I am trying to decide if I should go ahead and replace them. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 48 Fri Feb 04, 1994 F.OGLE [Color BBS] (Forwarded) If you run a BBS and want to try and produce a problem, I suggest keeping e- mail and any other seq files that are regularly appended. I have had 81's that worked fine, but in my mind at least, if there's a recipe for disaster cooking, try to avoid eating ;) ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 49 Fri Feb 04, 1994 CBM-ED [e.g.bell] (Forwarded) Dick: RK> WD1770 chips with J1 open by the 1581 Checker program. Both RK> drives appear to work Ok and have previously been worked on a RK> BBS without any problem. RK> Is there any test I can run which will demonstrate the RK> supposed problem with these chips The word I have always heard about this is that if 'it ain't broke, don't fix it'. It was said that only some of the chips were bad of the wd1770s, and if you haven't had a problem, you probably won't. They are not that expensive, I don't think, so it probably wouldn't hurt, but I have no idea where you would get them. Seems to me that GEOS-TIM said Fred Bowen is going to be in a conference real soon right here in the Commodore$ area. He would be the ideal person to ask. It was him that wrote the program that tells what chip is in the drive. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 50 Fri Feb 11, 1994 L.SCHONDER [Lou] (Forwarded) I have two 1772's sitting around, BTW. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 51 Tue Feb 15, 1994 C128.JBEE at 15:36 EST > R.KIRK7 [Dick] > 1581 > Is there any test I can run which will demonstrate the supposed problem > with these chips? I am trying to decide if I should go ahead and replace > them. These files might be of interest to you: 5325 (checks the wd1770) 4492 3157 5891 5705 4902 9623 6081 6853 6915 7133 (checks the roms) 7887 ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 52 Wed Feb 16, 1994 J.THOMPSON75 [Wyrkham] at 00:14 EST Check with Grapevine they bought out almost all of Commadore's discontinued stock. JimBo ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 53 Sat May 14, 1994 B.MASSE [BIG BOB] at 23:17 EDT 1581 problems... Just recently I have been getting "drive not ready errors" when trying to access my 1581 drive. If I pop the disk out and then pop her back in then it seems to access correctly again. Later the same ol' problem crops up. This has just stared recently, and it seems to be getting progressively worse. Is there something that I can tweek -poke- or prod in this drive to make it behave? Maybe clean the heads? Also, the problem doesn't care which disk is in the drive, it will occur with all of them. Maybe a good head cleaning..... Awaiting your expertise... Bob *p ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 54 Sun May 15, 1994 CBM-ED [e.g.bell] at 01:39 EDT I believe this was traced to a cold solder joint on the board... U10 kind of springs to mind. If I'm wrong about the cause, I know I'm right about it being a problem with the drive itself. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 55 Sun May 15, 1994 B.MASSE [BIG BOB] at 12:21 EDT ED... U10 on the 1581 being one of the IC's right... Also if I tap the the drive it will work fine. For a while anyway. Bob ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 56 Sun May 15, 1994 CBM-ED [e.g.bell] at 19:00 EDT Bob: Yes I was referring to an IC chip, but I would still recommend that you wait until you get some other verification of this. I'm not sure enough to recommend you go tearing into your drive. :) The problem you are having is definitely a known bug in the drive tho... I think I remember this as the solution, but I hope someone else will chime in and verify it. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 57 Mon May 16, 1994 B.MASSE [BIG BOB] at 21:44 EDT Ed... found the problem on the drive... seems that the disk was not seating tight enough to activate the little sensors that are in there to allow the drive to know if there is a disk in the drive. I put a shim in to raise the motor PCB up about 1/32 of an inch and now the drive works GREAT..... Yee haw! Bob ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 58 Sun Sep 25, 1994 L.SCHONDER [C128.LOU] at 02:20 EDT Does anyone know a source for '81 drive mechanisms? ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 59 Sun Sep 25, 1994 CBM-ED [e.g.bell] at 04:26 EDT I don't know a source, but I remember a discussion elsewhere that the 1581 uses a standard Chinon mechanism that can be had cheaply and is directly compatible with the 1581. You can check further based on that. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 60 Sun Sep 25, 1994 B.MASSE [BIG BOB] at 11:36 EDT > L.SCHONDER asked... > Does anyone know a source for '81 drive mechanisms? ------------ When I replaced my 81 mech a few months ago I called grapevine and asked for a commie 1581 replacement mech. They told me they were sold out. When I asked for a Amiga 500 internal replacment drive they had plenty. It is the same drive mech. Everything bolts right up to the 1581. The only difference is the setting of a dip switch or jumper on the back of the drive. It wont look exactly like the original mech but it works great. I think the price was around $59.00 I don't know if I would suggest using Grapevine though, until they get their act together... you might try Software Hut though... 1-800-932-6442. Bob ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 61 Fri Dec 23, 1994 H.HERMAN1 at 03:33 EST Butch, uh.. um... Are you switching your monitor over to an 80 column screen when you switch your 128? Howie ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 62 Sat Jan 07, 1995 S.MERZON [Steve] at 17:39 EST I have been having several problems with my 1581 and I hope someone can offer some advice. My systems is as follows: C128 with Jiffy Dos 6.01; 1541 (device 8) with Jiffy Dos 5.0; 1581 (device 9) with Jiffy Dos 6.0 I have had the 1581 for a few years but lately have been experiencing three recurring problems. 1) Writing files: I have been using DESTERM 2.0 to capture messages from the Internet via Compuserve. I leave my capture buffer open and let the program write the buffer to the 1581 each time it fills up. In a typical session, approx 50 80 block files will be written. I switch disks every 20 files, so each disk is not used to capacity. I always initialize after switching disks. At different points during this process, I will find that the directory of the disk has been trashed. It may happen at any point (even after the first file). On occasion I have the same problem using Wizard 128 v1.5 on GENIE, although I tend to capture far fewer, but larger (250 block) files. 2) Formatting Disks: Before each online session, I fully format a batch of disks. I use the 128's HEADER command. I use the same disks week after week. At least one of the disks (a different one each time) will return a bad disk error. Unlocking the disk using Locksmith 1581 will allow it to format. The disks are a generic DD DS disk. How do I know if the bad disk error is not a fluke as the disk will format on a second attempt? 3) Reading files: I use DiskWhiz 1.1a to read the sequential files I capture. I have encountered Read Errors on Track 40, situations in which the drive locks up w/o an error message, and various illegal track/sector messages when reading files. In most cases, when the drive locks up, I will have to turn it on and off several times to clear the problem. According to a few diagnostic programs I have downloaded from the GENIE libs my 1581 has a WD1772 with J1 open. A Rom check program states I have 77, 25, 205. I am not certain what these numbers mean, but I hope someone out there may have an explanation. I have heard that the 1581 is known to have several bugs in it. Are these problems something that can be repaired or are they just something I have to live with? Any advice would be appreciated! Steve ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 63 Mon Jan 09, 1995 C128.JBEE at 03:04 EST > S.MERZON [Steve] There are a few things I would check. 1) That the disk drive itself is clean. 2) That it is properly grounded through the power outlet. 3) It contains the most recent controller chip (WD1772). 4) I would use a high quality diskette (Sony). Those cheap $0.29-$0.35 diskettes will not work properly in C-1581 disk drives much of the time, even after being formatted. The C-1581 has various buglets that pop up from time to time and trash your diskettes. Especially if you frequently scratch and rewrite files to the diskette. Many BBS owners and programmers have been bitten by nuked disks. As to it being hardware related or software related, it is hard to tell. Sometimes when you have a "trashed" disk, turn off the disk drive, turn it back on and try reinserting the disk again for a directory. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 64 Mon Jan 09, 1995 S.GOLDSMITH2 [Iron.Man] at 07:23 EST > The C-1581 has various buglets that pop up from time to time and trash > your diskettes. Especially if you frequently scratch and rewrite files > to the diskette. Many BBS owners and programmers have been bitten by > nuked disks. As to it being hardware related or software related, it is > hard to tell. I've never had problems in CP/M with my 1987 vintage 1581. I assume these 'bugs' were in GCR mode? SG :) ==> RoundTable BB reply via CyberTerm 1.05 beta front end ==> Steven P. Goldsmith S.GOLDSMITH2@GENIE.GEIS.COM ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 65 Mon Jan 09, 1995 H.HERMAN1 at 07:26 EST Steve, The probable cause of the 1581 drive probs are those generic disks, as JBEE notes. I always use brand name disks (Maxell) and have never had any of the probs you describe. I suspect that the "generics" do not have the quality control imposed on them that a known manufacturer would insist upon. Howie ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 66 Mon Jan 09, 1995 C128.JBEE at 16:11 EST No, I did not mean CP/M mode. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 67 Mon Jan 09, 1995 CMD-DOUG at 23:20 EST P.S. The 1581 doesn't have a GCR mode... it's strictly MFM. Since most of the DOS bugs turn up in the BAM handling routines, CP/M isn't affected. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 68 Tue Jan 10, 1995 D.TUOMI [Doctor] at 07:08 EST You could see a problem with speed in CP/M mode though if one of the resistors is left open (a common problem in early 1581's). I can't remember the name of the resistor, but I know there are programs floating around to test whether your 1581 has the latest WD controller that will operate in it, as well as test whether this particular resistor is open. Doc. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 69 Sat Jan 21, 1995 L.SCHONDER [C128.LOU] at 11:42 EST I've lost two disks to "File appending Bug". (Both have been recovered) One disk was a generic with NO BRAND NAME at all! The second was a Fuji. Besides these disks, I have dozens of Sonys and Maxells, NONE of which caused a problem. This lends support to the theory of the 1581's disk quality problem. A LOT of support! I use my 1581 heavily. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 70 Sat Jan 21, 1995 S.MERZON [Steve] at 17:53 EST All, Thanks for your help and advise regarding my 1581 problems. I brought the drive into a local repair place that was/is an authorized commodore center and they diagnosed the problem as a faulty power supply. While they did not have a replacement I was able to order one from CMD and the drive seems to be working jjust fine! Thanks again for the advise! Steve e7 ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 71 Mon Feb 20, 1995 J.BARBER9 [Dan Barber] at 21:34 EST I was wondering if anyone has used MEI/Microcenter to get DD/DD disks for there 1581 disk drive? Or are considered to inferior quality to work with most drives. They are .31 cents apeace that is why I ask. They say gold seal certified with lifetime warranty. Sould I advoid them, or try them and return them if they don't work. Thanks in advance. Dan ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 72 Tue Feb 21, 1995 P.KELLER5 [UPCHUG Pres.] at 05:56 EST Our user group buys both 5 1/4" & 3 1/2" disks from MEI/Micro Center and have very very very little trouble (like 5 disks out of 1000) if any at all. Patrick D. Keller, Jr. President - UPCHUG (University Place Commodore Home Users Group) Tacoma, Washington ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 73 Thu Feb 23, 1995 E.BOURDON1 [C128-Eddie] at 00:04 EST Here's a new one: I recentley had trouble with what I thought was my 128. It wouldn't load any files, directory or auto-boot off my 1581, yet in 64 mode it worked just fine. I brought it to a friend to check it out, and he said it (128) worked fine for him. I tried loading off a 1541 drive in 128 mode and it worked great, too. Now I'm stumped. What would cause the 1581 to work in 64 mode, yet not 128 mode? I tried it with JiffyDOS installed and with the stock rom in there, same problem. It has the wd1772 with J1 open (if that helps). When I try to load anything (including autoboot) the drive light just stays on, like it's trying to load something, but never does. Any help is appreciated..I have my 128 working, but now I'm stuck using it with a 1541 :/ ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 74 Thu Feb 23, 1995 C128.JBEE at 02:08 EST If the C-128 works fine in native mode using a 1541 but not the 1581, but works fine with the 1581 in C-64 mode, I would suspect a component dealing with the burst protocol or a chip that handles the serial bus handshaking. Most likely the 6526 on either the drive or computer is bad, I would suspect the drive. The other thing could be the cable itself is damaged and needs to be replaced. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 75 Thu Feb 23, 1995 E.BOURDON1 [C128-Eddie] at 17:56 EST I have already tried replacing the cable with many of the other ones that I have lying around, but that didn't change anything. I'm suspecting that it is a chip somewhere in my drive, because the drive now makes a sound like it is trying to spin a disk, only it does it in short 'grinding' bursts, that is when there is no disk in the drive . It loads fine in 64 mode using my Supersnapshot v5 (it uses a burst load like format with no trouble). Well, I'll just get my other '81 back from a friend that I loaned it to. I'm sure I can survive with just 1 1581, especially since I'm getting a Ramlink to go with it. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 76 Thu Feb 23, 1995 R.DAY at 19:30 EST It must be the fast mode loading from the 128. Pin 1 is the FAST CLK in a 1581. It goes to a U13 a 74LS241 then to a U5, 8520 pin 15. I would try and replace the 8520, U5 in you 1581. if it is not in a socket just take a 6522 I think it's the same as a 8520 and you can get them out of a 1541 most likely they are in a socket in a 1541 and piggy back it on you 1581's 8520, U5. Mack sure the pins are snug fitting on the 8520. Then test it out if it don't work in 128 mode still then try and unsloder the 8520 to put a new on it. If that don't work I think it would be your U13 chip. But I bit it's the 8520. LS chips don't go bad very much. If you don't think you can do this I will do it for you for about $10 and fix the drive for you. Just let me know here or by E-mail it you like me to fix it if you can't. I hope you can. Raymond Day. ------------ Category 4, Topic 4 Message 77 Thu Feb 23, 1995 E.BOURDON1 [C128-Eddie] at 21:08 EST Thanks for the suggestion..I'll give it a try tonight. If it doesn't work, I'll let you know and I'll take you up on your offer. Thanks again :) ------------ Command: CATegories, TOPics, REAd, REPly BROwse, SETcat, EXIt, or HELp