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Topic 27        Fri Sep 26, 1986
C.HOGAN                      at 22:07 EDT
Sub: 1541/1571 DISK DRIVES                  

ARE THEY COMPADABLE
12 message(s) total
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Category 11,  Topic 27
Message 1         Fri Sep 26, 1986
C.HOGAN                      at 22:10 EDT

I HAVE A 1541 DISK DRIVE AND A C-64
I AM PLANNING TO GET THE C-128 SOON
IF I GET THE 1571 DISK DRIVE WITH IT CAN I USE ALL MY C-64 GAMES ON IT?
IN OTHER WORDS...CAN YOU USE THE 1571 TO LOAD IN COPY PROTECTED SOFTWARE THAT 
WAS MADE FOR THE 1541?

                   CHRIS HOGAN
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Category 11,  Topic 27
Message 2         Sat Sep 27, 1986
GBARRETT [VISION100]         at 00:26 CDT

Welcome to the C128 club, Kevin...in advance, that is!
     The 1571 drive is about 80 percent compatible with 64 software in the 64 
mode...it's just that some of the heavily copy-protected programs do funky 
things to it.
     If you still want your games, best bet is to keep the 1541 as well as the 
1571...and switch 'em back and forth.  Companies like Electronic Arts and 
Activision have copy protection schemes that may not like your 1571!
     I think you'll find you'll like the games that ARE coming out for the 128, 
tho...Firebird Software has a few...as does Infocom/Activision...but most will 
be played in the 64 mode...in 40 cols. 
     (Don't think you'll see an 80 column graphics game for the 128 in the near 
future)
     -GaryB
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Category 11,  Topic 27
Message 3         Sat Sep 27, 1986
CHARRINGTON                  at 10:08 PDT

Another thing to keep in mind: almost none of the copy
programs for the 64 will run on the 1571 drives. These
do weird things to disk RAM, and that RAM is a tad bit
different between the 1541 and the 1571. ON the plus
side---boy will you love how fast the 1571 is in comparison
to the 1541.
Courtney
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Category 11,  Topic 27
Message 4         Sat Sep 27, 1986
DEBS-GUEST [MIKEM]           at 17:39 EDT

But Fast Hack'em 3.0 and 4.0 do allow the use of 1571's, and
quicklike, too!
I've found that Firebirds C-64 programs are really finicky about
the type of drive used, and many just will not run on a 1571.
Its a shame, since Firebird puts out some of the *best* games
available.
-Mike
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Category 11,  Topic 27
Message 5         Sat Oct 11, 1986
M.SWEENEY [cougar]           at 20:41 PDT

As a PROUD owner of both drives I have a chance to see many weird things
happen in trying to load programs. Activision,i.e Roadrace will not load on
the 1571 at all. As far as E.A. goes some will and some will not. The newest
protection schemes seem to give the most problems as some are leaving the
CBM jump tables in the dos and writing their own, against CBM's recomandations.
If you had to chose one or the other then by all means get the 1571. But
if you can afford 2 then get both, it makes life so much better.
      LUCK, Mike S
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Category 11,  Topic 27
Message 6         Sun Oct 12, 1986
GBARRETT [VISION100]         at 20:37 CDT

All of the Activision product to date uses copy protection schemes that simply 
will NOT work on the 1571...the latest versions of their games state "1541 disk 
drive only" on the cover or manual.  Supposedly, the company will trade disks 
for a version
that will work on the '71...but I have yet to hear from someone who's received 
theirs back!
-Garyb
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Category 11,  Topic 27
Message 7         Mon Oct 13, 1986
CHARRINGTON                  at 06:51 PDT

I do reviews for CTODAY, and all the Activision stuff I have
recieved (store copies) say they will run on the 1541/1571 disk
drives. They do...but poorly. In my experience, the copy protection
is very sensitive to disk alignment and also very sensitive to ANY
RF from nearby tv sets/monitors etc. I'm surprised to hear you are
seeing things marked: 1541 only. Then again, maybe it isn't so
surprising. 
  -Courtney
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Category 11,  Topic 27
Message 8         Wed Oct 15, 1986
GBARRETT [VISION100]         at 00:04 CDT

Courtney, at the Consumer Electronics Show, the reps said they were planning to 
mark their stuff 1541 ONLY until Commodore got all its 1571 bugs worked out and 
stabilized drive production (Activision reps, that is!)
   In fact, all of their literature on new games lists 6128-1541 drive...
   They have used copy protection in the past that just won't work with the 1571 
drives because of the different (unused in the 1541) registers.  I know they 
have changed some of that...but most games I have tested run VERY
poorly on the '71 with a HIGH crash level.

-Gary
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Category 11,  Topic 27
Message 9         Tue Dec 16, 1986
MAYSMITCHELL [SounDesign]    at 01:07 EST

Greetings:
           Funny thing I learned today about my 1571. The Hardware
was designed by Greg Berlin, and the Software (Dos V3.0) was
expanded,edited, and revised by David G. Siracusa. The Hardware
though was made far more powerful than what the operating system
allows it to do. The Book I have been studying is 1571 Internals
which 
says that the 1571 has a possible transfer rate of 60Kbytes/sec.
and also can load an entire track about as fast or as fast as
it loads sectors, I've seen this written somewhere in the
C128 programmer's guide with the burstload and burstsave routines.
The system is also possible to transfer at rates of 500K/sec.
(This sounded more like 500K bits rather than bytes,I wouldn't be
rprised if it WERE bytes!) The reason for the 1571 being slow
lies within the fact that first Dos v3.0 has alot of Slop code
which doesn't need to be within Operating system. Most of this
"Slop" consists of Dos Management for two multiprocessors and
and a dual drive (this is the code that was used for the OLD
4041 drives). When the 1541 is being used with the FastLoad
carts and other Turbo utilities, all the programmers are really
doing is kind of neating up the Operating System and using
only the routines that should be used. The 1541 is capable of
doing a proper transfer at 1200 bytes/sec., and it would
 this permanently if it was properly written within the
software to do this, the 1571 can do far better and faster
ansfer rates than what it does but the Operating System
just doesn't tap this power. Won't somebody telly somebody
something so that Software writers will stop using the
OLD Dos and make a Disk operating system that was designed
specifically for the drive??? (Meaning why doesn't Commodore
redesign the 1571'S ROM so that it will make full use of all
of it'S capabilites and hardware, instead of just using old
routines that was designed for a much older drive!)
                       -Ken Mays-
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Category 11,  Topic 27
Message 10        Tue Dec 16, 1986
MICHAEL.M [-:SysOp:-]        at 21:19 EST

Well, we know that 1571 DOS contains the 16K ROM from the 1541 for
compatibilities sake (and in it's entirety).  The remaining 12K, I agree
, could have been more than an expansion on an old idea of multi-
processor drive management.  Alot is wasted.  The new job loop was
slipped in there with the second-side manager and WD 1770 controller
, etc.  Actually, alot of capabilities of the WD 1770 are not taken
advantage of either (like stepper-motor control, and switch-selectable
double/single density).  
I guess the bottom line in all this is money.  Would we pay double the
price of a 1571 in exchange for the added perks?  The folks who do the
studies (along with the deadline people) probably voted: NO, they
wont pay that price (and we're behind our release date as it is).
The possibilities are still there though, and can be taken advantage
of.  We have already seen a few hardware projects out for the 128.
-=:Mike
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Category 11,  Topic 27
Message 11        Tue Dec 16, 1986
SPARROW.J                    at 21:46 EST

Agreed Mike, and as the 1571's operating system gets further studied 
and improved upon I think we are going to see some bright 14 year old
blow us all away.  By the way, for those interested Miklos Garamszeghy
recently did a nice series of articles on Burst mode programming
in Twin Cities 128.  Also Miklos will be our guest on a Tuesday night
C-128 RTC in the near future.

--Sparrow James
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Category 11,  Topic 27
Message 12        Fri Dec 19, 1986
MAYSMITCHELL [SounDesign]    at 06:08 EST

 
          For what was said, I agree that since Commodore was
behind (well Dos v3.0 was copyrighted in 1985), but it has
been about a year and 3 months since it has been out for the mass
rket,(market) surely they could have updated a few quirks here
and there by now (which is rumored to be in effect now-messing
up alot of Memory Maps (hee-hee)) but surely before you
redesign an operating system you have to ask yourself, am I
getting paid to do this or do I do a great job, get paid a few
bucks and then that's it. I've seen alot of shortcuts and alot
of things which could have been done (Western Digs, stepper
ntrol is far powerful than what it's being used for.) but
as was said...the more time/the more money. Right now I'm
seeing how far I can push the Ram units (I have a 512K one)
then will go back to the 1571 Internals. Maybe with a few
more comments about what could be done with the drive (like
a patch that makes the log-disk routine work a little better!)
then..you never know. The most exciting thing I've read so
far was doing transfers at 60Kbytes/sec (disk-computer-disk).
When we get to loading tracks/saving tracks in mere seconds
then we will know the true meaning of imaginative power!
--> More to come later...It's late and I'm beat!
                           ::SounDesign::